ColonelBlimp
What time is bird?
Jane Turner said:
You said:
Jane Turner said:
Man predates dodo too much to maintain sustainable population. Dodo gone. What's wrong with that, pray tell???
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Despairing of the feral parakeet situation (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ColonelBlimp
- Start date
You said:
Man predates dodo too much to maintain sustainable population. Dodo gone. What's wrong with that, pray tell???
John B (not the sloop)
Don't blame me I didn't vote for 'em
Hey Jos - This may not be necessary
http://www.shootingtimes.co.uk/news/313838/Gamekeeper_redundancies_reach_new_high.html
Who said the recession was all bad? Every cloud etc.....
David FG
The Big Dipper
If it makes you feel better.
But I am intrigued by which bit of the significance of a loss increases as the size of the total decreases you are having trouble with.
Last edited:
Jane Turner
Well-known member
As I said way back, you, well actually it was Col Blimp then, are getting caught up in the temporal/locational trap. One breeding hen harrier being eaten by a Hen Harrier is clearly very bad news for the hen harrier population in that area in that year... it may be very good news for a territory-less Hen Harrier, or one would otherwise be forced to breed in a sub-optimal or game-keeper threatened territory next year.
Now if Hen Harrier populations did drop below the threshold where the loss of a breeding bird one year is not recoverable from, then the way to prevent extinction them it to take them into captivity.
Jane Turner
Well-known member
Wasn't it Monkeys and Pigs that saw off Dodo, not that is relevant in any shape or form to this debate!
ColonelBlimp
What time is bird?
Jane Turner said:
Or, in the future when this becomes a possibility, to get rid of the non-native predator causing their decline!!!
Jane Turner said:
I would have thought it clearly would be, being a possible example of predation causing declines...
Jos Stratford
Beast from the East
I agree with the brick-wall comments above - the cause for the decline is well-known, it has nothing to do with an avian predator, be it native or non-native.
You are like a tabloid newspaper, repeat the rubbish enough times, maybe someone will start to believe it.
Imaginos
Well-known member
Thought this might be of interest (its IN PRESS)
So provide attractive RNP nesting sites and stop them competing with Nuthatch. Then they will become limited by availability of food and the Regents Park Eagle owls will have plenty to dine on.
I know there's a smiley here that means I shouldn't take this comment too seriously, but...
Surely if you increase the availability of RNP nest sites you will increase the population & therefore increase the competition pressure on nuthatches (& other cavity nesters?)
On a different note there is ample evidence for predators (cats, tree snakes, mice etc.) driving native species to extinction on islands (or at the very least having a detrimental effect on populations that, combined with other factors drive species to extinction). Though I don't think that this is likely with the HH/EO situation.
I do wonder whether there is any evidence that the British Hen harrier is a genetically seperate subspecies from continental birds and whether there have been any behavioural (or other) studies on the difference between British/Yorkshire Harriers & others?
With regard to evolution & climate change the following may illuminate:
A long-term association between global temperature and biodiversity, origination and extinction in the fossil record Mayhew, Jenkins & Benton; Proc Roy Soc B 275
"We found that global biodiversity (the richness of families and genera) is related to temperature and has been relatively low during warm 'greenhouse' phases, while during the same phases extinction and origination rates of taxonomic lineages have been relatively high. These findings are consistent for terrestrial and marine environments and are robust to a number of alternative assumptions and potential biases."
The Red Queen and the Court Jester: Species Diversity and the Role of Biotic and Abiotic Factors Through Time MJ Benton; Science 323
"Evolution may be dominated by biotic factors, as in the Red Queen model, or abiotic factors, as in the Court Jester model, or a mixture of both... Paleobiological studies suggest that species diversity is driven largely by abiotic factors such as climate, landscape, or food supply"
Effects of non-native plants on the native insect community of Delaware
Zuefle Brown & Tallowy; Biological Invasions 10
"Overall, insect biomass was greater on Natives than Non-native Congeners and Aliens, but insect biomass varied unpredictably between congeneric pair members. Counter to expectations, Aliens held more insect biomass than did Non-native Congeners...If these results generalize to other studies, loss of native insect biomass due to introduced plants may negatively affect higher trophic levels of the ecosystem."
Alien dandelion reduces the seed-set of a native congener through frequency-dependent and one-sided effects Takakura, Nishida, Matsumoto & Nishida; Biological Invasions 11
"Field observations revealed that the seed-set of natives decreased substantially as the proportion of alien neighbors increased."
Eradications of invasive alien species in Europe: a review Genovisi; Biological Invasions 7
"a total of 37 eradication programmes have been recorded. Thirty-three eradications were carried out on islands and four on the mainland. The rat (Rattus spp.) has been the most common target (n = 25, 67%), followed by the rabbit (n = 4). In many cases, these eradications determined a significant recovery of native biodiversity."
Jane Turner
Well-known member
Well..... there was a smiley..... but.... since RNP needs human assistance winter feeding to survive the winter, it is unlikely to spread out of urban areas. That paper suggested that competition with Nuthatch only occurred when the best RNP nest sites were blocked up, so it does actually follow that as long as you give RNP nice bespoke nesting sites that are more attractive than Nuthatch nest sites, the population of RNP will be limited by winter food supply in urban areas and will not cause problems with Nuthatches in urban parks. In non urban areas, there will not be a sustainable population of RNP to cause problems. It also suggests that if you do want to get rid of RNP, then starving them out is the answer. Would deal with pigeons at the same time
Hen Harriers are quite big wanderers. I'm rusty on taxonomy of harriers, but I think hudsonius is the only race other than nominate... if hasn't that been split? I see them coming in off the sea quite frequently these years, I'm guessing its overspill from the Isle of Man (where they are all over the place, crashing through lowland gardens like Sparrowhawks!)
Of course ground nesting bird have problems when introduced ground predators are introduced to the ecosystem that they have evolved in for millions of years - no one would dispute that. The point that ColBlimp seems unable to grasp, is that is not in the least bit relevant wrt Hen Harriers and Eagle Owls!
PS I need to go, but like the sound of the Red Queen and COurt Jester models!
Hen Harriers are quite big wanderers. I'm rusty on taxonomy of harriers, but I think hudsonius is the only race other than nominate... if hasn't that been split? I see them coming in off the sea quite frequently these years, I'm guessing its overspill from the Isle of Man (where they are all over the place, crashing through lowland gardens like Sparrowhawks!)
Of course ground nesting bird have problems when introduced ground predators are introduced to the ecosystem that they have evolved in for millions of years - no one would dispute that. The point that ColBlimp seems unable to grasp, is that is not in the least bit relevant wrt Hen Harriers and Eagle Owls!
PS I need to go, but like the sound of the Red Queen and COurt Jester models!
Imaginos
Well-known member
Ah I see, the limiting factor is (currently) winter food. That makes sense (I note that a recent Belgian study (Invasive ring-necked parakeets Psittacula krameri in Belgium: habitat selection and impact on native birds Strubbe & Mattyson; Ecography 30) states that "Parakeet numbers were also strongly associated with cavity density, suggesting that this may be a limiting factor." though).
I've had a very brief look through Web of Knowledge & didn't find any research published on RNP since Pithon & Dytham's work up to 1998. Does anyone know if there any more recent studies carried out to see if winter food is still a (the) limiting factor - particularly if winters start getting milder?
Oh, and a more 'birdy' climate change/evolution paper to check out:
Influence of climate change on the abundance, distribution and phenology of woodland bird species in temperate regions Leech & Crick; Ibis 149
"This review focuses on the impacts, both observed and potential, of climate change on birds breeding in temperate woodlands of the Western Palaearctic, a significant proportion of which are currently declining. Changes in ambient temperatures and patterns of precipitation may have direct and indirect effects on the survival rates and productivity of bird species, thus influencing population sizes. For some species or populations, the timing of events such as egg-laying and return from the wintering grounds is also changing in relation to shifts in the peak of food availability during the breeding season. The degree to which different individuals are able to track these temporal changes will have a significant bearing on population sizes and distributions in the future. Unless active management steps are taken, the relatively low dispersal rates of tree species may lead to a decrease in the total area of some woodland habitat types as losses at the southern edge of the range are likely to occur much more quickly than expansion at the northern edge. In addition, the dispersal rates of many woodland birds are themselves low, which could affect their ability to move to new habitat patches if currently occupied areas become unsuitable. Thus, woodland birds may be particularly susceptible to the impacts of climate change."
I've had a very brief look through Web of Knowledge & didn't find any research published on RNP since Pithon & Dytham's work up to 1998. Does anyone know if there any more recent studies carried out to see if winter food is still a (the) limiting factor - particularly if winters start getting milder?
Oh, and a more 'birdy' climate change/evolution paper to check out:
Influence of climate change on the abundance, distribution and phenology of woodland bird species in temperate regions Leech & Crick; Ibis 149
"This review focuses on the impacts, both observed and potential, of climate change on birds breeding in temperate woodlands of the Western Palaearctic, a significant proportion of which are currently declining. Changes in ambient temperatures and patterns of precipitation may have direct and indirect effects on the survival rates and productivity of bird species, thus influencing population sizes. For some species or populations, the timing of events such as egg-laying and return from the wintering grounds is also changing in relation to shifts in the peak of food availability during the breeding season. The degree to which different individuals are able to track these temporal changes will have a significant bearing on population sizes and distributions in the future. Unless active management steps are taken, the relatively low dispersal rates of tree species may lead to a decrease in the total area of some woodland habitat types as losses at the southern edge of the range are likely to occur much more quickly than expansion at the northern edge. In addition, the dispersal rates of many woodland birds are themselves low, which could affect their ability to move to new habitat patches if currently occupied areas become unsuitable. Thus, woodland birds may be particularly susceptible to the impacts of climate change."
Jane Turner
Well-known member
Its pretty clear that climate change is the real threat! If all the hot air that went into justifying culls actually went into demanding a more sustainable way of life who knows what could be achieved!
I'm not aware of any more recent studies.... are there any non-urban alien populations of RNPs yet? Even in Spain, they seem to be mostly in the cities.
I'm not aware of any more recent studies.... are there any non-urban alien populations of RNPs yet? Even in Spain, they seem to be mostly in the cities.
Isurus
Well-known member
the provision of RNP nest boxes in parks would also allow the removal and disposal of eggs which would probably be a slightly more palatable method of limiting the spread than busting a cap in 'em.
There was an interesting story recently about an attempt to dispose of a feral monk parakeet colony being abandoned as unworkable somewhere in a US city.
There was an interesting story recently about an attempt to dispose of a feral monk parakeet colony being abandoned as unworkable somewhere in a US city.
Jane Turner
Well-known member
Or better still, replacing them with fake eggs, so they don't just re-lay!
John o'Sullivan
Well-known member
Username posted earlier about the difficulty of changing people’s beliefs,
There are three common ways people change
1.“Road to Damascus” type experiences whereby something happens that immediately changes your belief systems.
2. “Eureka” type observations where after a period of contemplation you
suddenly arrive at a new understanding.
3.“Rolling stone” changes whereby persistent slow incremental changes in
knowledge leads to a dawning change in comprehension
As a cognitive behavioural counsellor I have been attempting to help Colonel Blimp learn to see RNP in a different light so that he no longer despairs of the RNP situation but looks out the window and rejoices at the power of evolution the adaptability of individual species and the development of a vibrant eco-system suited to the modern human dominated world.
Many emotional reactions that people have that cause them difficulty are based on “faulty thinking”, unsustainable premises that if re-evaluated lead to a different emotional reactions. Colonel Blimp’s despair is in fact based on such faulty thinking.
Colonel Blimp’s actions and desires that follow on from his faulty thinking are unproductive and lead to a diversion away from more productive action (as I believe is true for many conservation practices).
It would seem that if somebody could design a nuthatch specific nest box, or put up RNP nest boxes we could have RNP and Nuthatches. Then everybody could be happy, no despair any-where. Perhaps Colonel Blimpm would like to do this.
In counselling terms and amusingly enough (to me at least) given the nature of the discussion he is “resistant to change”.
I am hopeful that one day for his sake the light will come on and he will no longer despair about the RNP situation. I would guess that should this change occur it would do so via a “rolling stone” process.
Perhaps a few non-avian examples will help him see the importance and power of
“ non native” change.
Colonel Blimp’s avatar is the flag of St George (a Palestinian) who was a Christian Martyr. Christianity originated in the Middle East whilst it was introduced like many species into Britain by the Roman’s.
The national flower of England is the Asiatic rose.
The English Language according to Henry Hitchings (not Higgins) is a “whore among languages”, characterised by an extraordinary capacity to absorb words from others.
Fewer than a quarter of our words reflect the language’s Germanic origins while the rest derive from 350 other languages.
The review in the Times ends by saying “ The idea that this book demonstrates so well is that English is a fundamentally hybrid, ever changing entity”.
The same is undoubtedly true of the English countryside.
There are three common ways people change
1.“Road to Damascus” type experiences whereby something happens that immediately changes your belief systems.
2. “Eureka” type observations where after a period of contemplation you
suddenly arrive at a new understanding.
3.“Rolling stone” changes whereby persistent slow incremental changes in
knowledge leads to a dawning change in comprehension
As a cognitive behavioural counsellor I have been attempting to help Colonel Blimp learn to see RNP in a different light so that he no longer despairs of the RNP situation but looks out the window and rejoices at the power of evolution the adaptability of individual species and the development of a vibrant eco-system suited to the modern human dominated world.
Many emotional reactions that people have that cause them difficulty are based on “faulty thinking”, unsustainable premises that if re-evaluated lead to a different emotional reactions. Colonel Blimp’s despair is in fact based on such faulty thinking.
Colonel Blimp’s actions and desires that follow on from his faulty thinking are unproductive and lead to a diversion away from more productive action (as I believe is true for many conservation practices).
It would seem that if somebody could design a nuthatch specific nest box, or put up RNP nest boxes we could have RNP and Nuthatches. Then everybody could be happy, no despair any-where. Perhaps Colonel Blimpm would like to do this.
In counselling terms and amusingly enough (to me at least) given the nature of the discussion he is “resistant to change”.
I am hopeful that one day for his sake the light will come on and he will no longer despair about the RNP situation. I would guess that should this change occur it would do so via a “rolling stone” process.
Perhaps a few non-avian examples will help him see the importance and power of
“ non native” change.
Colonel Blimp’s avatar is the flag of St George (a Palestinian) who was a Christian Martyr. Christianity originated in the Middle East whilst it was introduced like many species into Britain by the Roman’s.
The national flower of England is the Asiatic rose.
The English Language according to Henry Hitchings (not Higgins) is a “whore among languages”, characterised by an extraordinary capacity to absorb words from others.
Fewer than a quarter of our words reflect the language’s Germanic origins while the rest derive from 350 other languages.
The review in the Times ends by saying “ The idea that this book demonstrates so well is that English is a fundamentally hybrid, ever changing entity”.
The same is undoubtedly true of the English countryside.
I am sorry John , but for me and the vast majority of right thinking people your ideas of what man is doing by introducing animals into areas outside their natural range being an ok thing to do just does not hold water and I can see there is little point in continuing this debate as your ideas are so far removed from mine and anyone else who cares about the conservation of our native wildlife .
One quick thought Jane as you state conventional train of thought is that we are in for warmer summers . As yet this shows little sign of happening. On the contary our summers in East Anglia seem to be getting colder and wetter and our winters much milder. For once this year we have had what I call a "normal winter " with several periods of snow and a lot of frost , but in noway could it be thought as a cold winter. For the past decade were have only had a handful of snowy periods and frosts have been the exception rather than the rule. More than anything it seems at the moment we are loseing the seasons with an smoothing out of summer and winter extreams. Mind you a guess that could all change and I for one would welcome proper cold winters , though I might have to think about migrating north if we get the hot summers promised.
There are various projections put forward from us becoming warmer and wetter to being colder and dryer if the Gulf Stream changes and I think the honest truth is that the experts do not realy know just what is going to happen in the future.
One quick thought Jane as you state conventional train of thought is that we are in for warmer summers . As yet this shows little sign of happening. On the contary our summers in East Anglia seem to be getting colder and wetter and our winters much milder. For once this year we have had what I call a "normal winter " with several periods of snow and a lot of frost , but in noway could it be thought as a cold winter. For the past decade were have only had a handful of snowy periods and frosts have been the exception rather than the rule. More than anything it seems at the moment we are loseing the seasons with an smoothing out of summer and winter extreams. Mind you a guess that could all change and I for one would welcome proper cold winters , though I might have to think about migrating north if we get the hot summers promised.
There are various projections put forward from us becoming warmer and wetter to being colder and dryer if the Gulf Stream changes and I think the honest truth is that the experts do not realy know just what is going to happen in the future.
One things for sure Tideliner...the gulf stream 'will' shut off...don't really see how that cud be halted now....itz just a matter of 'when'....[only my opinion...i'm no 'expert']!
Whether a 'majority/minority' agree with John O' Sullivan...i personally like to hear things from different perspectives....even if i disagree and later dismiss some of the notions. My 'beliefs' need to be challenged/perhaps modified.....itz kind of an 'on-going' sorta thing....makes life more interesting...to me anyway!
ps....John [Spock]...'English is fundamentally hybrid, an ever changing entity'?!....you are right on that in 'my book'....[still haven't mastered Klingon tho]....!
pps...live long and prosper........
Whether a 'majority/minority' agree with John O' Sullivan...i personally like to hear things from different perspectives....even if i disagree and later dismiss some of the notions. My 'beliefs' need to be challenged/perhaps modified.....itz kind of an 'on-going' sorta thing....makes life more interesting...to me anyway!
ps....John [Spock]...'English is fundamentally hybrid, an ever changing entity'?!....you are right on that in 'my book'....[still haven't mastered Klingon tho]....!
pps...live long and prosper........
ColonelBlimp
What time is bird?
Jos Stratford said:
Listen, I've said enough times so far why I believe that the case of the owls might not be as cut and dried as one might believe. This isn't just a case of a positive-effect reintroduction, but the introduction of a bird which has not been in Britain in the recent geological timescale, and whose introduction may well have delerious effects on harriers, even though they have ostensibly evolved together. The Bowland harriers are hanging by a string. Persecution, the root problem, will take a while to sort out. I wouldn't want to do that and then find that the harriers were in decline due to the owls, however unlkiely that would be!!!
ColonelBlimp
What time is bird?
Tideliner said:
The trouble is, these long term trends are very hard to see at a local level and in a limited timeframe. In the last decade, you might not have noticed much correlation, but over the next 100?
John o'Sullivan
Well-known member
Hi Tideliner,
I love the Idea of "right thinking people".
This is essentially the reason why I joined this debate, to try and shake up the idea that there is a "right way" of thinking.
There are many examples throughout history that demonstrate that many of the actions of "right thinking people" were in hindsight based on limited and simplistic belief systems.
Like many of the simplistic arguments that get people into trouble (according to cognitive behavioural theory) they are based on simple shoulds, oughts and musts.
We MUST prevent extinctions, being a good example.
Belief systems that when examined however fail to pass more than the most simplistic of evidence tests.
Not that long ago I was a "conservationist" and believed in the dominant and therefore common belief systems.
I now believe that to be a conservationist in this (rapidly and ever changing) world is essentially oxymoronic.
I now believe that humans moving species around the world is a potentially positive force(though this does take a bit of getting used to).
It introduces genetic vibrancy and potential into a system that is under intense pressure.
Evolution does not care about "native" it cares about succesful.
John O'
p.s.
Username,
not Klingon for me (although I do like their approach to drinking), I'd be more of a Vulcan really.
I love the Idea of "right thinking people".
This is essentially the reason why I joined this debate, to try and shake up the idea that there is a "right way" of thinking.
There are many examples throughout history that demonstrate that many of the actions of "right thinking people" were in hindsight based on limited and simplistic belief systems.
Like many of the simplistic arguments that get people into trouble (according to cognitive behavioural theory) they are based on simple shoulds, oughts and musts.
We MUST prevent extinctions, being a good example.
Belief systems that when examined however fail to pass more than the most simplistic of evidence tests.
Not that long ago I was a "conservationist" and believed in the dominant and therefore common belief systems.
I now believe that to be a conservationist in this (rapidly and ever changing) world is essentially oxymoronic.
I now believe that humans moving species around the world is a potentially positive force(though this does take a bit of getting used to).
It introduces genetic vibrancy and potential into a system that is under intense pressure.
Evolution does not care about "native" it cares about succesful.
John O'
p.s.
Username,
not Klingon for me (although I do like their approach to drinking), I'd be more of a Vulcan really.
