Do I want an EII 8x30? (1 Viewer)

[brocknroller]

Hi Brock (post 93),

In relation to the hard focuser on the new model Habichts, this was not always the case:


And:


John

Hi John,

Tobias has a 1961 8x30 Habicht, whose "focusing works flawlessly, which I surmise was not waterproof, hence, the difference between it and his newer 2019 model.

I didn't know that Swaro had increased the water depth resistance, so that could well be why the focusers are earlier samples that are waterproof turn more smoothly.

In the final analysis, it's the greaseless focuser design that causes the issue of different resistances in turning the focuser to the left and to the right. One direction pushing the focusing lens against a smaller pocket of Nitrogen, and the other pulling it away from the lens and allowing more space for the gas. At least that's the way I heard it explained.

But even with this difference, some turn smoothly in the harder to turn direction and some rachety or "sticky" as some describe it, so there's a lot of sample variation out there.

And then to add an "x factor" to the mix are those Swaro owners who never had any issues with any of the dozens of Swaro focusers they tried. With that kind of luck they should play the lottery!

Thanks for that info.

Brock

 

[brocknroller]

Hi Ed
Its clear that some folks have encountered Swarovski binos with a focusing action they did not like/feel comfortable with.
One of the other things one reguarly reads about Swaro binos is that they do not lose their value at the same rate as other brands because there is always a strong demand for them on the secondhand market. Hard to see how this demand has been sustained over the years if the focus problem was so serious or so common.

Lee

Lee, I'm at least glad that you recognized that "some folks" have had Swaros with wonky focusers (or as you carefully couched your words "focusing action they did not like/feel comfortable with)," which implies that it's not something that's objectively verifiable.

Not everybody sees "rolling ball" in low distortion binoculars, but AMD is an optical property that can be verified.

Similarly, not everybody sees the glare in the 8x32 EL, but there again, you only need to see the false pupils around the exit pupil in the photos on Allbinos to show that there is a lot of light leak.

If they can send a man to the moon... they probably invented device that can test of mechanical resistance of a focuser to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that most Swaro focusers turn harder in one direction than the other.

Then again, in the post-fact age, some people might still continue to believe it's a "myth," even though I've read more posts/reviews about problems with Swaro focusers than I can count on the Octomom's babies hands and toes!

The fact that Swaro continues to the most popular alpha brand among UK birders (and among US hunters) doesn't mean that they don't have issues on either side of the pond. Rather it means: (1) Swaro does a bang up job of promoting its binoculars to their targeted consumers. I'm not sure if the company holds birding events/fairs in the UK, but they give free samples to hunting guides in the US, and any time they make any innovation, no matter how small, they market the heck out of it; (2) Swaro's optics are first class; (3) their build quality is also among the best, if not the best in certain models, and (4) they have the best warranty of any alpha brand.

So, that's a lot to like, and if it means you have to send it in if you get a wonky focuser or if you decide it's not so bad that you can live with it, there's so much else to like about the binoculars and company to keep buyers coming back and reaching deeper and deeper into their wallets to buy the latest and greatest Swaros to come out of the House of Absam.

And if that wasn't enough, you've got Swaro master marketing team and their penchant for naming new coatings: Swarobright, Swarodur, Swaroclean, Swarovision, Swarotop, Swarosupedurper (made up that last one, but it's coming...)

Compare that to Nikon, which continually updates their coatings without any fanfare. The 2017 8x30 Anniversary edition has flat transmission coatings with a slight red bump like the EDG, but they didn't advertise it. I wouldn't have known hadn't I read Tobias' review. Nikon really needs to up its marketing program, not just in Europe, where it's really lacking, but even in the US. (Nikon if you're reading this, I've got 27 years experience as a writer, and I'm available for hire immediately, or at least after my stimulus check).

Consider my own experience. I came this close >.< to keeping the 2010 8x32 EL (which cost me as much as SV Els are selling on the used market), because: they had the ideal ergonomics for my hands; they had eyecups that were small enough fit into my eyesockets, so I could see the entire FOV; the view was sharp to 90% out without field flatteners; the microcontrast (fine detail) was the best I've seen in any binoculars; and I knew that if I did have issues with the bins, I could send it back for repair or replacement.

But the cons <<outweighed those pros>. The focuser was annoying to use due to the stark difference in focusing resistance going from near to far, plus the harder side was rachety. From reading others who had issues with their Swaro focusers, Swaro might have been able to tweak it, and make it less annoying, though they could never make it as smooth as my EDG's focuser unless they used grease , which would make it hard to turn the focuser in either direction for birders who brave the cold of winter to watch Snowy Owls, and hunters who will sit for hours in the tree stands in below 0* F weather to bag an eight point buck if their fingers don't fall off from frostbite.

That was the >.< on my mind, but there was also the glare issue, and there is nothing they could do about that. I could lessen it by adding sun shades, but they made the binoculars ridiculously long (look at how long Tobias' Habichts are with sun shades). It was a (double) bridge too far for me.

But still I hestated and kept them for an extra week. But then came the clincher. When I compared the EL side by side with the $200 Cabela 8x32 Guide I had purchased a couple months earlier, the Guide was 90% as good in all the areas I liked about the EL for $1,000 less! But, I could walk into a bird meet with a Swaro hanging down my neck, and gain membership into the exclusive Swaro Owners Club (I heard they drink Philbert Rare Cask Sherry Finish Cognac).

I curse Kamakura for making such a fine, affordable pair of binoculars that can compete with alphas. Now I will never get to drink that Philbert cognac!

Anyway,

 

[brocknroller]

@brocknroller
Looks like another email to Swarovski..

1. If my binoculars ever ended up in 4m (14ft) of water my arms are too short to get them out. Hopefully it’s actually meant to be related to rinsing off muck or sand under a tap.
2. I’m a two finger focus person left index pull left or right index pull right.
3. I can reach the focus twiddler on a lot of smallish porro binoculars and hood the lenses with the heel of my hand. I’ve always done this.
4. Glare, veiling or otherwise isn’t a thing I worry about, I expect it to appear in certain situations and I never expected peering at those situations through binoculars to make it any better. Some binoculars are worse than others. Compromise always goes somewhere.

If you could add balancing a ball on your nose to these other special skills, you'd have a job at the circus!

Yes, indeed, compromise always goes somewhere, however, where I don't want it to go is in binoculars that cost between $1200-$2000. If I'm going to fork out a year's craft beer money and be forced to guzzle Bud-wise-er with the frogs, then the binoculars better be darn near perfect as humanly possible.

I went birding today with the Cabela's 8x32 Guide, and I saw a bluebird. Bluebirds are never found in my backyard, and I've only seen them once during a winter on a bush that also had a group of yellow finches on it, which added some vivid color to the otherwise bland winter landscape. This present bluebird was curious about me, so it came closer and then closer. Man, what color! The blue through the Guide is like the blue in the EDG and blue in the 8x30 E2 AE--stunning and vivid. And the fine detail was amazing. I could see ripples of skin on its leg.

The bluebird returned, so I whistled some bird songs to see how it reacted (I didn't know its song), and that scared it back into the woods where it remained. Lesson learned: When you see a curious bluebird, be quiet and watch it or learn how to whistle its song.

Then a couple of robins, a male and female, landed about six feet in front of the picnic table bench I was sitting on. I've seen robins many times before on my front lawn, in the backyard, in the park, but this was as close as I've ever gotten to one. The female's breast wasn't nearly as brightly colored as the male's but the rippled pattern reminded me of the brown markings I've seen on the breasts of red-tailed hawks. She took off and left the male alone, who kept on pecking until he found a worm. Then he flew off. Robins are a lot more interesting to watch close up than they are at a distance where you can miss the subtle features.

Then I walked down to the duck pond to watch the ducks. I saw a couple (male and female) come out onto the water with their two ducklings. They paddled around for a while, then the couple turned and bobbed their heads up and down, perhaps to tell their ducklings it was time to go back to shore, but the ducklings stayed in the water repeatedly diving for food. They were under water for about 16-17 seconds, and then they came up for air for about 5-6 seconds, before diving again. They did this for about 20 minutes, then they headed back to shore. Interesting show.

No green herons at the pond yet. I saw one last year perch on a branch sticking out of the water and grab a bullfrog and eat it. I had my camera with me and tried to capture the moment but the camera has autofocus and focused on the weeds in front of me where I was crouching to keep out of sight. So good to get outside again and go birding after a long, cold, dreary winter.

 

[NDhunter]

This is a Nikon discussion about the 8x30 EII, so let's get back on topic. I think it is a good idea for anyone watching to
just get one. It is a very good binocular.

Jerry

 

[MandoBear]

It's funny, I was also just musing on the fact that this thread, like a river nearing the ocean, had meandered far and wide from it's original starting point.

 

[willisoften]

If you could add balancing a ball on your nose to these other special skills, you'd have a job at the circus!

@brocknroller You mean you cant!! Lots of european kids spend hours trying to keep a football off the ground. Balancing it on your forehead/nose is one of the basics. It seemed important at the time. More important than French and German and English and English Lit, and Maths, and Physics.....

Yes it has wandered far from E2. The reason being I think that the E2 does many important things well, when others fail. It was natural I think that the Habicht come up. (it would I think be my favourite if not for the focusing as I prefer its barrel shape and eyecups.)
While I know that for many the optical performance is most important. It's the tactile that tops my list. The hinge, focusing, dioptre adjustment, straps grip, eyecups. All these things must work for me or I'll fiddle with them all damn day. The E2 does all this and presents a great image. The answer to me is obvious yes of course you want an E2. My only caveat is price, in the UK I only see it in at around £540. That I think is a nip pricey, but not at the level of a top of the line Roof.

 

[brocknroller]

@brocknroller You mean you cant!! Lots of european kids spend hours trying to keep a football off the ground. Balancing it on your forehead/nose is one of the basics. It seemed important at the time. More important than French and German and English and English Lit, and Maths, and Physics.....

Yes it has wandered far from E2. The reason being I think that the E2 does many important things well, when others fail. It was natural I think that the Habicht come up. (it would I think be my favourite if not for the focusing as I prefer its barrel shape and eyecups.)
While I know that for many the optical performance is most important. It's the tactile that tops my list. The hinge, focusing, dioptre adjustment, straps grip, eyecups. All these things must work for me or I'll fiddle with them all damn day. The E2 does all this and presents a great image. The answer to me is obvious yes of course you want an E2. My only caveat is price, in the UK I only see it in at around £540. That I think is a nip pricey, but not at the level of a top of the line Roof.

I forgot that European football is also played with the head, but at least players use their feet most of the time, America's "football" is a misnomer. The players feet only touch the ball for extra point kicks, punts and field goals, for most of the game the "football" is either being carried or thrown.

Yes, it's natural to compare the E2 and Habicht since they are both top WF porros that managed to survive extinction after the Cambrian roof explosion. Here's what Henry Link had to say in 2017 about the Habicht vs. the E2:

The only things I really like about the current 8x30 Habicht are the state of the art light transmission and color accuracy.

No 8x30/32 is my cup of tea. The axial image quality and ease of view of every one I've seen is obviously inferior to the 8x56 I normally use, but if the comparison is limited to just the ones you listed I would say the Swarovski is superior to my copies of the three Nikons only for light transmission and color accuracy. I haven't seen a current production 8x30 EII with the latest Nikon coatings, so I don't know how that would compare to the Habicht.

If Henry looked through a 2017 8x30 E2 100th Anniversary Edition with its flat transmission coatings like the EDG, I think he would prefer it to the Habicht.

Even though moving up to an 8x56 increases "axial image quality," I can't imagine myself carrying around a 43 oz. 8x56 roof for birding. Even my 8x42 EDG, which is compact and weighs 27.8 oz., is more weight than I want to carry if I'm walking a long distance. Perhaps if I were sitting behind a blind or in a park watching birds, but for mobile birding, I grab an 8x30/32 before walking out the door.

 

[Troubador]

Yes, it's natural to compare the E2 and Habicht since they are both top WF porros that managed to survive extinction after the Cambrian roof explosion. Here's what Henry Link had to say in 2017 about the Habicht vs. the E2:

The only things I really like about the current 8x30 Habicht are the state of the art light transmission and color accuracy.

No 8x30/32 is my cup of tea. The axial image quality and ease of view of every one I've seen is obviously inferior to the 8x56 I normally use, but if the comparison is limited to just the ones you listed I would say the Swarovski is superior to my copies of the three Nikons only for light transmission and color accuracy. I haven't seen a current production 8x30 EII with the latest Nikon coatings, so I don't know how that would compare to the Habicht.

If Henry looked through a 2017 8x30 E2 100th Anniversary Edition with its flat transmission coatings like the EDG, I think he would prefer it to the Habicht.

Even though moving up to an 8x56 increases "axial image quality," I can't imagine myself carrying around a 43 oz. 8x56 roof for birding. Even my 8x42 EDG, which is compact and weighs 27.8 oz., is more weight than I want to carry if I'm walking a long distance. Perhaps if I were sitting behind a blind or in a park watching birds, but for mobile birding, I grab an 8x30/32 before walking out the door.

Hi Brock
I really love your 'Cambrian Roof Explosion' but did you know that Cambria is an ancient name for Wales? One of the other mods lives in Wales, I shall have to ask him if, like 9/11, he can remember exactly where he was and what he was doing when the 'roof explosion' happened.

Like you, these days I grab a 32mm to go out nature-observing, and despite warnings of tricky eye placement and poor brightness in inclement conditions, I haven't encountered any problems at all. I shall have to take a look through an E2 if I ever get an opportunity, even though to me just holding a porro feels like shaking hands with an alien.

Lee

 

[MandoBear]

...even though to me just holding a porro feels like shaking hands with an alien.

Lee

Something you do on a frequent basis, Lee? Just need to know in order to understand how robust your basis of comparison is

 

[brocknroller]

It's funny, I was also just musing on the fact that this thread, like a river nearing the ocean, had meandered far and wide from it's original starting point.

Yes, threads can mimic nature, and often that meandering river/thread can take you to an interesting place you would have never have otherwise gone to such as finding out about Lee's alien hands.

However, such serpentine motion can be disturbing to linear thinkers who like threads to proceed vertically step by step, which is essential for professions requiring routine and technical accuracy, but it's not how my more artistic mind works, but in this case, I think my comments about birding also expressed my desire to be outside birding rather than dissecting the minutiae of birding binoculars!

But there was also relevancy when discussing the bluebird since I mentioned how the blues in the Guide, EDG and E2 Anniversary Edition all have flat transmission coatings that give nearly equal weight to both ends of the spectrum (a slight bump in the red for the Nikons). That's an important point since this was not always the case with Nikon E2s, which traditionally had coatings similar to the SE and LX, which dipped in the yellow and peaked in the red. I also hammered on this point again by quoting Henry's 2017 comment about why he preferred the Habichts to the E2 even though he liked the E2's optics more (i.e., the Habicht's flat transmission state of the art coatings).

Years back, I remember comparing my SE, E2 (gray body), and LX with Jerry's 10x42 EDG I, and the blues through the EDG looked much more vivid, which suggested flatter transmission coatings. Ever since then I wanted to buy an EDG, but only bought one last year. But as I mentioned in my meanderings, those same coatings are now found in the latest E2s.

I just saw a BF subforum for discussing what interesting birds/things you saw today, which I think I will become a frequent visitor now that spring has sprung.

 

[brocknroller]

Something you do on a frequent basis, Lee? Just need to know in order to understand how robust your basis of comparison is

My "alienation" goes the other way. The grip is more comfortable and view much steadier with my porros, and mine all have different style bodies (E2, SE, 804 Audubon, 6x30 Fuji, 7x35 Aculon, 7x35 WF). What they all have in common is I have more real estate for my palms and fingers to support their weight on top and on the bottom.

With typical "H" body roofs, my hands are wrestling with each other, vying to see which hand can push harder against the side of the barrels since there's little space to hold them on top and not much space on the bottom for my thumbs to support the bins. After a while I get delirium tremens (DTs), and the roofs sway from side to side like a Andy Capp stumbling home from the pub.

The E2 though is rather stubby and may not be everybody's cup o' tea in terms of ergonomics, particularly for those who have large hands like me. Adding Bushwacker/Butler Creek flip up objective covers solves that problem for me.

Photo 1: 8x30 E2 shown on the right with sawed off Bushwackers (the flip up covers got in my way). The 10x35 E2 is on the right.

Photo 2: Showing how my grip on the SE makes it easy for me to hold the bins securely and focus without having to reach up like I have to on the EDG and other roofs. My grip and ease of focus is also similar for the E2.

Not shown: Can't find the pic I took showing how my fingers way overshoot the focus on the 8x32 LX. If I find it, I will post it for comparison. The LX was much harder for me to hold comfortably and steady than the porros. For Lee's alien hands, it would be probably be just the opposite.

 

[MandoBear]

Yes, threads can mimic nature, and often that meandering river/thread can take you to an interesting place you would have never have otherwise gone to such as finding out about Lee's alien hands.

However, such serpentine motion can be disturbing to linear thinkers who like threads to proceed vertically step by step, which is essential for professions requiring routine and technical accuracy, but it's not how my more artistic mind works, but in this case, I think my comments about birding also expressed my desire to be outside birding rather than dissecting the minutiae of birding binoculars!

Indeed - I find many of these threads are merely a springboard into all sorts of interesting streams of thought and pools of insight. It's fascinating to see which way the current will take them. A conversation, like life, very rarely proceeds in a straight line.

I have always considered the best place for binoculars is held up to one's eyes, and pointed at an interesting subject.

Like you, I find the E2 very easy and comfortable to hold - I tuck the rounded shoulders of the prism housings into the cup of each palm - no alien appendages required!

 

[tenex]

I really love your 'Cambrian Roof Explosion' but did you know that Cambria is an ancient name for Wales? One of the other mods lives in Wales, I shall have to ask him if, like 9/11, he can remember exactly where he was and what he was doing when the 'roof explosion' happened.

Wales has excellent fossils. Unfortunately I long confused Cambria with Cumbria, thereby missing the finer nuances of Monty Python sketches. I quite missed the Roof explosion, which was occurring in wealthier and trendier homes (before the introduction of phase coatings!), but have certainly adapted to its consequences.

 

[Troubador]

Something you do on a frequent basis, Lee? Just need to know in order to understand how robust your basis of comparison is

No not frequently, but we have the full set of 'Alien' movies on DVD and I have regularly picked up a Habicht 7x42 at the BirdFair!

Lee

 

[Hermann]

I shall have to take a look through an E2 if I ever get an opportunity, even though to me just holding a porro feels like shaking hands with an alien.

Funny how different we all are. I did some fairly extensive comparisons handholding different 10x40/10x42 porros and roofs using resolution targets, and I find I can hold the porros much better.

I also find them a heck of a lot more comfortable to hold.

Hermann

 

[CharleyBird]

Funny how different we all are. I did some fairly extensive comparisons handholding different 10x40/10x42 porros and roofs using resolution targets, and I find I can hold the porros much better.

I also find them a heck of a lot more comfortable to hold.

Hermann

If anyone doubts these words of wisdom, just wait till you hit your eighties and see what your older, weaker, arms & hands & fingers naturally prefer.
No way will I be holding my lovely 12x50 Ultravid, nor my 10x32, or even 6x32.
It'll be the E2 for easy grip, lightness and that all important fluid focuser. That's why I find them so relaxing to use right now...along with the nice wide view.

 

[dries1]

The EII when it fits the viewer, works, period.

 

[brocknroller]

If anyone doubts these words of wisdom, just wait till you hit your eighties and see what your older, weaker, arms & hands & fingers naturally prefer.
No way will I be holding my lovely 12x50 Ultravid, nor my 10x32, or even 6x32.
It'll be the E2 for easy grip, lightness and that all important fluid focuser. That's why I find them so relaxing to use right now...along with the nice wide view.

CB,

Good advice! Both my parents lived beyond 80 (my dad beyond 90). I'm not as healthy as they were at my age, but I should plan for the future in case I do make it. So, I'll use one 8x E2 now, and buy another and stick it in the closet for when I'm in my 80s.

I should also hold onto to my SE/E2 adapter in case my hands get shaky like my mom's and my grandfather's did in their 80s, and I need to use the E2 on a tripod.

Of course, that's assuming our leaders and representatives accept the science of climate change and put conservation before private interests, so there are enough trees left standing for birds and bugs to live (and us!). More than half the world’s tropical forests have been destroyed since the 1960s by deforestation. Since 2000, an annual average of 70,685 wildfires burned an annual average of 7.1 million acres of woodland. This is more than double the average annual acreage burned in the 1990s (3.3million acres). Regardless of your political persuasion, we all live in the same world, and we need to change these trends soon if we hope to still be watching birds into our 80s.

 

[CharleyBird]

I should also hold onto to my SE/E2 adapter in case my hands get shaky like my mom's and my grandfather's did in their 80s, and I need to use the E2 on a tripod.

Yes. An alternative that I've invested in is the Berlebach tripod adaptor, shown here:

Nikon E II 8×30 – Binoculars Today

(Note these porros do not fit on the Leica tripod adaptor despite it being so very nice for roofs)

 

[John A Roberts]

Plus some images from the Berlebach site at: https://www.berlebach.de/en/?bereich=details&id=70


John