Eagle Owls in Yorkshire?? (1 Viewer)

[dbradnum]

EOs are sedentary, and do not make seasonal journeys, therefore they are very unlikely to come zooming in off the North Sea one foggy day, unlike Short eared Owls, who do it regularly.

Sedentary? Maybe apart from the Yorkshire bird that travelled over 100 miles to Shropshire, and the satellite tracked birds shown on the programme that had travelled several hundred kilometres, and over high mountain passes. That's not my idea of sedentary...

They are clearly capable of "zooming in off the North Sea"... but whether they have or not is a question that we can't answer.

 

[Pugs]

Thought I'd have to register and post as these birds, as all Birds of Prey are close to my heart and I have been actively involved in the conservation of Birds of Prey.

Firstly , I don't think the RSPB has any right to label this bird as a killing machine, it is no more or less a killing machine than a White tailed Sea Eagle (which they re-introduced).
As I've posted on this very topic elsewhere on the web I shall paste here a few thoughts...


"Scotland in every right is as remote a place, as for instance, the Hertz Mountains in Germany and therefore should be capable of sustaining a bird of this size.

Eagle Owls do compete with other birds of prey. Much as Sea Eagles competes for breeding sites with Golden Eagles. There has been "speculation" that Sea Eagles will remove Golden Eagles from their territories, breeding sites being at a premium. Other birds of prey have also been found as nest site prey items too.

Point is, in the right habitat and I'm not talking the midlands, remote parts of Britain could support these birds without disastrous consequences. Nature has a way to balance out predator/prey relationships. On top of this, it is not entirely true to state the Eagle Owl has no natural predator. They have on occasions been found at Sea Eagle eyries as prey items (H Mikkola).

Eagle Owls will attack humans, as will many other species of owl defending a nest site. This depends entirely on the individual."

So the RSPB feels that they wish to brandish this bird an outlaw, a killer and yet none of those people have had any experience, none have field studied the bird and it's relationships in it's environment. Sea Eagles will displace Goldies, they do prey on EO's and they do take live lambs, enough said, yet I hear no voice from the RSPB agianst this bird!They really are not in a position to label or tarnish other Birds of Prey. I find that incredible and I for one would never support them when they are so 'two faced'

As for dispersal patterns, you cannot compare a Tawny not getting 'across to Ireland' with an EO not reaching Uk mainland. Study the bird in question and you will find that Tawnies are more or less sedentary and do not travel great distances, whereas recoveries abroad of EO's are sometimes hundreds of km's from their place of birth.

Rant over (o)<

 

[Ben Rackstraw]

Thought I might as well have a go at this...looks fun.

I'm on the whole dead against introduced species, and won't shed a tear when one pheasant loses its place on the British list in the near future. But the situation with the Eagle Owls is completely different to the situation of the Ruddy Duck, Ring-necked Parakeet and the multitude of European garden birds that one might see on a visit to New Zealand.

Eagle Owl is a part of the Western Palearctic avifauna, and so its colonisation, whether via introduction or natural population increase should not pose problems for bird species that have for the most part evolved in the presence of this predator. OK so Red Grouse might not have too much 'evolutionary memory' of them, but I can't see Eagle Owls being allowed to terrorise Grouse moors, given that Hen Harriers aren't allowed to do this. And furthermore, I don't think the EOs will think it worthwhile poring over those sonagrams to take out the UK's other famous endemic.

The RSPB's argument that they could affect species like Corncrake is a bit silly really - I'm sure Corncrakes don't feature too heavily on the EO menu in Eastern Europe and, if they're apparently so scared of water, they won't be crossing over to the Western Isles in a hurry. This line of argument is uncomfortably familiar to the line that has been peddled by another 'organisation' over the last few years, blaming Peregrines and Buzzards for declining populations of Song Thrush etc. I'm sure the RSPB would not want to become bracketed in this way with Songbird Survival.

So, I'm all for the study them and see what happens plan of action

 

[savethebirds]

i certainly welcome it.

although they will kill and eat anything they can get there talons on. i have heard there has been occasions when peregrines have been swiped from there roost spots by eagle owls, as both birds tend to prefer rocky cliffs to nest, an eagle owl would make a swift snack out of a peregrine.

they also take foxes, but tend to stick to rabbits, so farmers should welcome these owls on there land.

they are ferocious killers, so yes other birds and mammals will suffer if they are nesting/hunting nearby, but they are awesome birds.

Why not?

 

[John Gibson2]

Eagle Owls I Yorkshire

Thanks for the report Richie. I missed it the first time around. You lucky blighter. Still, you only get what you earn and deserve.
I'm encouraged by the general tone of the EO thread. I was worried that there was going to be a mad rush towards extermination but I should perhaps have known better.
I look forward to seeing them in the wild with a bit more confidence.
John

 

[London Birder]

for anyone to exterminate these birds at the moment would be completely insane, the monitoring needs to be completed ... what I'd like to know is IF the monitoring does find that EO's are having a detrimental impact (which I seriously doubt) what are the proposed methods of removing the birds ... it would seem not only morally reprehensible but totally crass if these birds were allowed to breed only for the monitoring report to conclude that they were harmful ecologically and needed to be shot!

I assume (?) that if the monitoring does come down against EO's in the UK that the relevent bodies have a plan to remove them without the aid of firearms?

 

[ed keeble]

for anyone to exterminate these birds at the moment would be completely insane, the monitoring needs to be completed ... what I'd like to know is IF the monitoring does find that EO's are having a detrimental impact (which I seriously doubt) what are the proposed methods of removing the birds ...

I don't think trapping them would present a major challenge. It would be a very different situation to the Ruddies where shooting is pretty much a last resort option because of problems trapping them and difficulty of locating nests.

 

[London Birder]

I agree, trapping wouldn't be a particularly difficult thing I wouldn't have thought ... hope those 'in the know' know where they all are !

As for Ruddies, I agree there too.

 

[John Gibson2]

Eagle Owls In Yorkshire

for anyone to exterminate these birds at the moment would be completely insane, the monitoring needs to be completed ... what I'd like to know is IF the monitoring does find that EO's are having a detrimental impact (which I seriously doubt) what are the proposed methods of removing the birds ... it would seem not only morally reprehensible but totally crass if these birds were allowed to breed only for the monitoring report to conclude that they were harmful ecologically and needed to be shot!

I assume (?) that if the monitoring does come down against EO's in the UK that the relevent bodies have a plan to remove them without the aid of firearms?

As usual you make a good point. Hopefully, the decision makers will be aware of the general mood of the birders who contribute to this forum.
John

 

[CornishExile]

This from a Mr Lee Evans, who runs a listing club and is held in esteem by some:

...The current population is believed to be in the region of 40 pairs, with
birds ranging from the Black Isle in Northern Scotland to North
Derbyshire...

This is something I find almost as hard to swallow as the premise that the UK's been colonised by a large raptor, yet in the meantime we've not noticed any pattern of vagrancy on the well-watched coasts where we would expect to see large raptors being picked up, cf SEO and LEO. (2 records, on an oil rig and in an east coast garden, do not a colonisation make).

It's all very well for us to assume that inland sites are extremely underwatched, but if these birds had come in off the near Continent, surely we might expect them to have been found in Kent (a county with pretty good inland coverage I would suggest, given the regular woodland survey work that has gone on over the past 10 or so years monitoring various passerine species). Plus, the nesting requirement of cliffs seems to have made quarries a favoured nesting site in Europe - and again, quarries (and particularly abandoned ones) tend to be focal points for birders / naturalists looking for other things; you'd expect at least a couple of other breeding pairs to have been picked up...

...of course, according to LGRE they have been. Quite where he gets his figures from we are of course not privy to. I'm just surprised that given the fact that the Yorkshire EO's have been in the public domain for so long (see British Birds), no other breeding records have been forthcoming to BB in the meantime. BB have always published breeding records of even the rarest species, using vague geographical generalisations to protect their anonymity. If they'd received any more credible breeding details of EO's, I think we can safely assume they'd have told us. I'm prepared to stretch my credulity to breaking point and accept that one or two folk in-the-know might have for the reasons of local countryside politics suppressed 'their' breeding birds from the record, but others wouldn't have been so chary. Unless we're to believe there's some sort of orchestrated cover-up going on... I'm not paranoid enough to swallow that.

So, 40 pairs? I for one won't accept that assertion until it comes from an 'official' source rather than hearsay. That said, I'd be staggered if there weren't more than 1 pair out there - all those young they've fledged have got to be up to something apart from flying into Shropshire power cables, and I daresay there've been plenty of other EO's lost over the years. Some pairs will no doubt be overlooked - but why not just one or two more on the official record? Perhaps there just aren't as many breeding out there as we might like to think?

ce

 

[barry potter]

don't you read posts ... I have already previously agreed with Jos's comments ...

Look, it's all really really simple...we have X amount of EO's in this country, breeding and assumedly non-breeding ...

no one knows where they've come from (the pair on TV last night I mean) but everyone agrees (or don't they) that there's a significant number of escapees/releases at large ...

Ecological monitoring is underway ...

If Jos's comments translate into the UK landscape (and I believe they will) then EO stands a good chance of being upgraded to Cat C of the Brit list (and probably C1 at that if my memory serves me correctly) and thereby gain legal protection, no one can expect a Cat A listing without actual proof of a wild bird ...

Like it or not, that's just the way it is

surely a chick hatched and raised in the wild is a wild bird.
regards barry B

 

[London Birder]

yes, personally I'd agree, a chick hatched in the wild and subsequently living as a wild bird is pretty much just that, a wild bird ... but, it would pay to read the BOU's classifications and understand how any EO are likely to be treated in the future ... A 'truly' wild EO (a proven wild bird from a wild population) would be placed in Cat A, anything other than that would be some form of C <C1 in the case of EO I think e.g. if a proven Dutch bird turned up>, at present I think EO is Cat E (Escape), or more accurately E*. Any young are, I imagine, currently treated as E until such time as someone offers up proof of wild occurance, but even that doesn't really shed any light on the breeding Yorks birds origins. I assume, but don't know for certain, that the Dutch treat their birds as Cat C (or the Dutch equivelent) seeing as the population there is thought to have originated from escapes/releases. In the UK we know there are escapes and intentional releases out there (as for numbers I personally don't know) and I for one cannot honestly point the finger at the BOU and say 'you're wrong' ... it just seems sensible to regard all such birds as 'probable escapees' for the time being (after all, and given the claimed numbers in the UK, one might expect escapees to find each other and breed). RD did nothing really to further the cause of naturally occuring EO's in Britain (though I would've love to see him do so), or at least he didn't in the TV programme aired the other night, merely flicking through a printout of old and questionable records and surmising without proof isn't good enough. It's fine to insinuate that they 'surely have occured' but where's the substantiation?. As CE pointed out, one record of a bird on an oil rig (was it even racially identified?) and a less than sprightly bird on the East coast in Autumn do not a colonisation make (nor do they make a case for wild occurance particularly). LGRE may have evidence to the contrary (or may not), if so, I'd bet my bins we'd all love a squint at it ... I'd be particularly keen to hear more about the feather he has acquired which shows 'interesting' DNA.
I'm in no way against having EO in the UK (unless they are proven to be ecologically unsound here which I personally can't see) whether they are truly wild immigrents or not, I have no personal axe to grind against benign introductions/escapees (if indeed that's what they turn out to be). They are here, they are breeding, they are being monitored.

As for historical records, well fossil bones don't really help do they? ... EO's may well have occured in the UK in prehistory but I imagine the UK had a somewhat different ecology back then; as for all the old records from 1600 onwards etc, I can't say I've seen them all but sure I've seen the odd reference in county avifaunas and they never have much by way of supporting detail. Assumedly the BOU have been through these records and found them wanting. RD (who is rightly regarded as a knowledgeable raptor man and conservationist) seems to think that the rigourous approach to bird documentation that we see today shouldn't be applied to these records and up to a point I can see his argument, but come on, don't we need at least some confidence levels in past 'claims' or should we merely accept those old records as EO's simply because somebody said so ... and thereby possibly skewing the (past) British avifaunal assemblage into something it may not have been ... simply because some would like to see EO promoted to Cat A.

 

[Ken Hall]

Sedentary? Maybe apart from the Yorkshire bird that travelled over 100 miles to Shropshire, and the satellite tracked birds shown on the programme that had travelled several hundred kilometres, and over high mountain passes. That's not my idea of sedentary...

They are clearly capable of "zooming in off the North Sea"... but whether they have or not is a question that we can't answer.

Hi David,
we need to differentiate between migratory, sedentary and dispersal. Migratory birds will cross large bodies of water, sedentary birds will not, although they are physically perfectly capable of doing it. Dispersal of 1st year birds will take them as far as necessary to establish a new territory, which in some cases may indeed be a considerable distance, but being non-migratory, they will not follow established migration routes. Collins Bird Guide is quite specific on which owls do what.

cheers, Ken

 

[barry potter]

withregards to the collins field guide,yes it is very clear on the status of owls however it does state that a handfull of genuine records for britain in the last century. Where do these records come from?
Regards Barry B

 

[barry potter]

Im starting to enjoy this one.
Reading up in the Birds of Lincolnshire and South Humberside by Stephen Lorand and Kieth Atkin I see on page152 and i quote(A very rare vagrant. A female shot near Stamford on 12th April 1879 was examinedby T.Cullingford at Durham University Museum. He recorded that the bird appeared to have been wild and in good condition after feeding on rabbits.)
Are there records at Durham still I wonder?
Regards Barry :smoke:

 

[London Birder]

apparent escapes bred in Northern England (the Yorks birds?) in 1997 and Moray and Nairn in 1984 and 1985.

Ogilvie ~ British Birds 92. 176-182 & 472-476.

 

[Ken Hall]

withregards to the collins field guide,yes it is very clear on the status of owls however it does state that a handfull of genuine records for britain in the last century. Where do these records come from?
Regards Barry B

Collins Bird Guide was first published in the 20th Century, so any reference to records from the "last century" would be the 1800's, and as has been pointed out in previous posts, there seems to be some doubt cast on the reliability of these.
Ken.

 

[Amarillo]

apparent escapes bred in Northern England (the Yorks birds?) in 1997 and Moray and Nairn in 1984 and 1985.

Ogilvie ~ British Birds 92. 176-182 & 472-476.

I read this in The State of the Nations birds. I wonder why no mention of this other pair was made in the BBC documentary? Surely if this is a definate record, then it should have been mentioned.

It does make you wonder if they are trying to cover up the existence of other pairs.

 

[Woodchatshrike]

I read this in The State of the Nations birds. I wonder why no mention of this other pair was made in the BBC documentary? Surely if this is a definate record, then it should have been mentioned.

It does make you wonder if they are trying to cover up the existence of other pairs.

Of course there are other pairs probably more then we can imagine and remember that Eagle owl is not protected under the W and C act because it is still regarded as an alien species. Until it is accepeted by the BOU birds can be shot an nests destroyed. There are people who are fanatically against these birds being wild in our countryside who would have no problem stopping there spread. I'm suprised that more are not reported. Birds are very vocal around the nest sites. I have stayed in various places in Spain and eastern Europe and heard birds by night.

 

[Jos Stratford]

It seems entirely probable to me that there are a handful of other pairs - but 40??? Surely such large birds (with loud calls) could not have established a population of this size without it being widely known by birdwatchers.

Comments anyone?

I could let you answer this one yourself - buy yourself an air ticket and I will put you within 500 metres of their nest site, I will be mighty impressed if you find one of the birds. In low densities, which 40 pairs in the entire UK would be, they can easily be overlooked. Call certainly might help, but how many birdwatchers wander round their local woodlands at night.