EDG 7/8/10 x42 still in production? (1 Viewer)

[brocknroller]

I stand corrected, I somehow had the idea these started back when the SE’s came out. Not such an old design after all. Theres very little to complain about with the EDG’s , their right up there with the best, they do everything so well. It does become a tough choice when were getting over $2000 , especially after you look through a Noctivid or NL. Even the EL’s and Ultravids make it a hard choice.

Maybe they'd be more competitive with the NL Pure if you paid $3,350 for an EDG.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004KVEVZU/ref=pe_2313400_696777630_em_1p_0_lm

 

[brocknroller]

Thank you for your thoughts and for the reassurance. I think I'm going to give the 10x42 EDG a whirl. I liked the 8x42 SLC very much, but found the 10x42 format didn't work so well with my glasses.

Let us know what you think after you've given them a good look-see.

I was out birding on Sunday when the sun made a special guest appearance and the weather was unusually mild (47*F). Birds looked sharp and colorful through the 8x32 EDG as they ate seeds from the sumac trees, but I had to stay pretty far away to keep from spooking them since I was up on the mountain ridge where they rarely encounter people. I wished I had a 10x42 EDG and steadier hands.

Here's a bluebird eating seeds from the fruit of a sumac tree taken with my point and shoot Coolpix pocket camera.

Brock

 

[Paultricounty]

Let us know what you think after you've given them a good look-see.

I was out birding on Sunday when the sun made a special guest appearance and the weather was unusually mild (47*F). Birds looked sharp and colorful through the 8x32 EDG as they ate seeds from the sumac trees, but I had to stay pretty far away to keep from spooking them since I was up on the mountain ridge where they rarely encounter people. I wished I had a 10x42 EDG and steadier hands.

Here's a bluebird eating seeds from the fruit of a sumac tree taken with my point and shoot Coolpix pocket camera.

Brock

Brock brother, toss the coolpix just use your smart phone already 😆.

 

[Bentley03]

Let us know what you think after you've given them a good look-see.

Brock

I will of course, after all, it was you and several other exceptionally helpful members here who nudged me over the EDGe into trying/buying some! 😉

I did a bit of limbering up in preparation yesterday. Sold my 10x42 Victory SF's and spent some time testing a 10x42 EL, 10.5x44 Kowa Genesis and 10x42 UVHD+. Eye relief was simply too marginal with the Kowa and Leica, even the EL was tight. It is simply phenomenal how three top line instruments can produce such diverse renders of exactly the same view, all of exceptionally high quality in different ways. In my mind, I'm hoping the EDG will cook up an image and handle most similarly to the Kowa, but even better.

Side by side, the EL gave me an incredibly sharp, but flat, image across the field to the edge. Just mightily impressive, yet cold and a little lifeless. The Ultravid was the opposite, exciting, the whole image popping, alive, your eyes drawn to the centre of the field in a technicolor wonderland, but the field felt small after the EL, a little tight, ideal for targeting, but I'd feel a little cheated when letting my eyes roam away from the centre, it felt like half a view after the EL, but I loved it. Then the Kowa, it was extremely well mannered and rendered a quite excellent image. Yet forgettable in some ways, which can be a good thing. Natural colours, not quite as sharp as the other two, FOV felt narrower, didn't 'wow', yet there was nothing not to like, it just did everything very well, comfortably and without shouting about it.

I won't have those instruments to hand to compare side by side with the EDG, but I'll certainly write down my thoughts here, and compare where I am reasonably confident from memory.

James

 

[Paultricounty]

Maybe they'd be more competitive with the NL Pure if you paid $3,350 for an EDG.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004KVEVZU/ref=pe_2313400_696777630_em_1p_0_lm

I will of course, after all, it was you and several other exceptionally helpful members here who nudged me over the EDGe into trying/buying some! 😉

I did a bit of limbering up in preparation yesterday. Sold my 10x42 Victory SF's and spent some time testing a 10x42 EL, 10.5x44 Kowa Genesis and 10x42 UVHD+. Eye relief was simply too marginal with the Kowa and Leica, even the EL was tight. It is simply phenomenal how three top line instruments can produce such diverse renders of exactly the same view, all of exceptionally high quality in different ways. In my mind, I'm hoping the EDG will cook up an image and handle most similarly to the Kowa, but even better.

Side by side, the EL gave me an incredibly sharp, but flat, image across the field to the edge. Just mightily impressive, yet cold and a little lifeless. The Ultravid was the opposite, exciting, the whole image popping, alive, your eyes drawn to the centre of the field in a technicolor wonderland, but the field felt small after the EL, a little tight, ideal for targeting, but I'd feel a little cheated when letting my eyes roam away from the centre, it felt like half a view after the EL, but I loved it. Then the Kowa, it was extremely well mannered and rendered a quite excellent image. Yet forgettable in some ways, which can be a good thing. Natural colours, not quite as sharp as the other two, FOV felt narrower, didn't 'wow', yet there was nothing not to like, it just did everything very well, comfortably and without shouting about it.

I won't have those instruments to hand to compare side by side with the EDG, but I'll certainly write down my thoughts here, and compare where I am reasonably confident from memory.

James

Wow your hard to please 🤪. If the EL10 eye relief was inadequate for you, your going to be very disappointed in the EDG which has less. And although the FOV is almost the same , the EDG has a more noticeable field stop, which will make it feel tighter than the EL. But like the others , it’s mighty fine glass.

 

[Bentley03]

Wow your hard to please 🤪. If the EL10 eye relief was inadequate for you, your going to be very disappointed in the EDG which has less. And although the FOV is almost the same , the EDG has a more noticeable field stop, which will make it feel tighter than the EL. But like the others , it’s mighty fine glass.

Hard to please? Maybe I am, or maybe more a perfectionist within my own unclearly defined parameters? 😗🤣😇

But, reading back what I wrote, I think I showed enthusiasm in different ways for all three of those binoculars I tested. What I was trying to put across was the amazing diversity between the three and how wonderful they each are in their own way.

Anyway, sorry if I came across as a cantankerous grumpy old git! 😳

Eye relief with me is a strange one. I can cope with an instrument which is tight on eye relief if the eyebox is friendly and the fit is perfect at my IPD. 8x32 UVHD+ is a case in point. Yet some instruments with ample eye relief don't, like the Victory SF's. I won't know where the EDG will fall in that equation until I try it.

EDG arrives tomorrow...

 

[Scott98]

For me, the EDG focuser puts it light-years ahead of the EL and UV+, even though they have great optics.

I had the 10x EDG out again yesterday for my dog walk, stopped by Deer Island in the Merrimack River, probably my favorite bird-watching spot in the whole world. Pretty quiet, no eagles, just me watching a young common Loon diving and eating fish.

There is something magical about using the EDG to view water - maybe the color balance? It's hard to describe but the water looks incredibly liquid-y and beautiful, really like using these for water birds. I noticed the same thing w/ the 7x. The lack of glare or flaring from the sun and skylight is probably part of it too.

I'm also finding a way to steady the hold more - I move my hands down the barrels, away from the focuser, and hold them down near the lenses. I exert slight pressure to push the eyecups against my brow, wedging them into position, it makes the view steady. So once focused I move my hands down to the "clamp" position and it works well.

 

[Paultricounty]

Hard to please? Maybe I am, or maybe more a perfectionist within my own unclearly defined parameters? 😗🤣😇

But, reading back what I wrote, I think I showed enthusiasm in different ways for all three of those binoculars I tested. What I was trying to put across was the amazing diversity between the three and how wonderful they each are in their own way.

I fully understand.

Anyway, sorry if I came across as a cantankerous grumpy old git! 😳

Not at all 🙏🏼✌🏼.

Eye relief with me is a strange one. I can cope with an instrument which is tight on eye relief if the eyebox is friendly and the fit is perfect at my IPD. 8x32 UVHD+ is a case in point. Yet some instruments with ample eye relief don't, like the Victory SF's. I won't know where the EDG will fall in that equation until I try it.

That is very understandable.

EDG arrives tomorrow...

You may very well like the EDG then, a little less eye relief than the EL but still a very friendly eye box. Although I rate the EL’s as one of the best with eye box accommodation as good as the EDG. But of course other things are factors.

Let us know how that EDG works out, such nice glass 👍.

 

[brocknroller]

Wow your hard to please 🤪. If the EL10 eye relief was inadequate for you, your going to be very disappointed in the EDG which has less. And although the FOV is almost the same , the EDG has a more noticeable field stop, which will make it feel tighter than the EL. But like the others , it’s mighty fine glass.

Easier to please than you since I don't wear glasses. I was joking, hence the . Nothing to do with you but with the absurd prices of EDGs on Amazon, which previously had an 8x32 EDG for $2,899! There's a "pre-owned" 8x32 EDG on on eBay from Japan for around that price right now.

I know you need high ER for glasses. The 8x42 EDG would probably work better for you with its 19.3mm ER. The 10x42's ER is not far behind with 18mm, but apparently not enough useable ER for you. For me, if I can see the field stop, that's the entire FOV, I'm happy. The only binoculars that I can't see the field stop in my peripheral vision while looking at the center is the 8x30 E2 due to the very wide 8.8* FOV.

It's also a comment on the high prices on alphas today. Not long ago, $2k used to be the "Dawe$' Limit."

Now that the $3k $ound Barrier has been breached, the sky's the limit. The NL Pure might be the bong, I haven't tried it, but for $3,500-$3,800, I'm surprised there are as many people out there willing and able to pay that much for a pair of binoculars especially at a time of economic uncertainty. You can buy excellent spotting scopes for that much (or at least you used to, I'm sure they've gone up, too, and it's not due to inflation, but because of Adam Smith's ever-growing looong arm).

I know people spend as much or more on other hobbies (someone is going to say that, so I got that out of the way); however, the best birder I met from the State College Bird Club used a $200 Pentax, and when we sat in a 15 ft. circle during the fall bird count, he found half the birds on the list, most not first with his binoculars but due identifying their call, and a few he made bird calls that were convincing enough to coax them out of the woods! Which proves you don't need $3k+ binoculars to ID birds.

I'm not casting aspirations on you or anyone else. I'm the same way but at a lower price point since I buy my binoculars on the used market. My 8x32 Cabela Guide is more than sufficient for birding, but the 8x32 EDG is better (perhaps not $1,200 better). But I was willing to pay a premium for a bit extra image quality and for slightly better in ergonomics (the Guide's ergonomics work well for my hands and are more compact for hiking, and the image quality is mid-tier at an entry level price).

But I admit that there's a certain pride that comes with owning an alpha, without which I probably wouldn't be posting to the BF binoculars subforums or reading comments on them.

Brock

 

[Paultricounty]

Easier to please than you since I don't wear glasses. I was joking, hence the . Nothing to do with you but with the absurd prices of EDGs on Amazon, which previously had an 8x32 EDG for $2,899! There's a "pre-owned" 8x32 EDG on on eBay from Japan for around that price right now.

I know you need high ER for glasses. The 8x42 EDG would probably work better for you with its 19.3mm ER. The 10x42's ER is not far behind with 18mm, but apparently not enough useable ER for you. For me, if I can see the field stop, that's the entire FOV, I'm happy. The only binoculars that I can't see the field stop in my peripheral vision while looking at the center is the 8x30 E2 due to the very wide 8.8* FOV.

I think you got me mixed up with somebody else, I don’t wear glasses.

It's also a comment on the high prices on alphas today. Not long ago, $2k used to be the "Dawe$' Limit."

Now that the $3k $ound Barrier has been breached, the sky's the limit. The NL Pure might be the bong, I haven't tried it, but for $3,500-$3,800, I'm surprised there are as many people out there willing and able to pay that much for a pair of binoculars especially at a time of economic uncertainty. You can buy excellent spotting scopes for that much (or at least you used to, I'm sure they've gone up, too, and it's not due to inflation, but because of Adam Smith's ever-growing looong arm).

I do think inflation plays a role in price increases. You can look at those $2000 binoculars and say the same thing when Binoculars was $1200. There is research and development costs, material costs that are constantly increasing, certainly labor is going up as workers have benefits, unions in some places play a role, storage and delivery costs etc. etc. $3000 is ridiculous for a pair of binoculars, just like $2000 was ridiculous in 2008. Just like before there are people who will save up to buy these expensive pieces of equipment and then others that have deep pockets or have lots of zeros in their yearly incomes. Economic uncertainty is not enough to stop a lot of people from purchasing luxury items. it only becomes a problem and they stop buying when they can’t keep the electric on or heat their homes.

I know people spend as much or more on other hobbies (someone is going to say that, so I got that out of the way); however, the best birder I met from the State College Bird Club used a $200 Pentax, and when we sat in a 15 ft. circle during the fall bird count, he found half the birds on the list, most not first with his binoculars but due identifying their call, and a few he made bird calls that were convincing enough to coax them out of the woods! Which proves you don't need $3k+ binoculars to ID birds.

I'm not casting aspirations on you or anyone else. I'm the same way but at a lower price point since I buy my binoculars on the used market. My 8x32 Cabela Guide is more than sufficient for birding, but the 8x32 EDG is better (perhaps not $1,200 better). But I was willing to pay a premium for a bit extra image quality and for slightly better in ergonomics (the Guide's ergonomics work well for my hands and are more compact for hiking, and the image quality is mid-tier at an entry level price).

there’s so many inexpensive very good binoculars on the market that would do the job for years to come, but that doesn’t mean anything. They’re a great reasonably economical cars, but people are still buying $75,000 cars to go from point a to point B , guilty.

But I admit that there's a certain pride that comes with owning an alpha, without which I probably wouldn't be posting to the BF binoculars subforums or reading comments on them.

I think the pride of ownership is there but for many its secondary and not even important to some. I have clients that have hobbies and buy very expensive objects that they treat like cheap disposable toys. To each their own.

Brock

 

[William Lewis]

For me, the EDG focuser puts it light-years ahead of the EL and UV+, even though they have great optics.

I had the 10x EDG out again yesterday for my dog walk, stopped by Deer Island in the Merrimack River, probably my favorite bird-watching spot in the whole world. Pretty quiet, no eagles, just me watching a young common Loon diving and eating fish.

There is something magical about using the EDG to view water - maybe the color balance? It's hard to describe but the water looks incredibly liquid-y and beautiful, really like using these for water birds. I noticed the same thing w/ the 7x. The lack of glare or flaring from the sun and skylight is probably part of it too.

I'm also finding a way to steady the hold more - I move my hands down the barrels, away from the focuser, and hold them down near the lenses. I exert slight pressure to push the eyecups against my brow, wedging them into position, it makes the view steady. So once focused I move my hands down to the "clamp" position and it works well.

The hold you describe works well, you may want to try having one hand down near the objectives with the other near the focuser with the end of your thumb on the focusing hand resting on your cheek bone.

That's pretty much the most solid hold I've found and for me at least negates any desire for i.s for 8x magnification bins of roof type.

I use a different hold for most porro's with my index finger working the focuser and the finger next to my thumb between the bridge and my forehead to anchor them. Again I don't feel a need for i.s with porro's of 8x mag and below with this hold.

Will

 

[Canip]

and compare where I am reasonably confident from memory.

That‘s a treacherous road to take. I have totally given up trying „comparisons from memory“ after finding out in retrospect a number of times that I was just fooling myself, and I bet the same thing can (will?) happen to you and everybody who tries that. Please try to do side-by-sides if you can, everything else is not very useful.
Sorry, just my (firm!) opinion 👋

 

[Paultricounty]

That‘s a treacherous road to take. I have totally given up trying „comparisons from memory“ after finding out in retrospect a number of times that I was just fooling myself, and I bet the same thing can (will?) happen to you and everybody who tries that. Please try to do side-by-sides if you can, everything else is not very useful.
Sorry, just my (firm!) opinion 👋

Exactly, been there done that, it doesn’t work. Gotta be side by side otherwise doesn’t work for me. I actually tested that theory. Test one optic, make mental notes, A few weeks later test something else out and try to make the comparisons with your mental notes. Then take them out side by side and you’ll be amazed at the difference in your memory of each. 🤪🤓

 

[brocknroller]

I think you got me mixed up with somebody else, I don’t wear glasses.

I did but maybe you should get an eye exam, just in case.

I do think inflation plays a role in price increases. You can look at those $2000 binoculars and say the same thing when Binoculars was $1200. There is research and development costs, material costs that are constantly increasing, certainly labor is going up as workers have benefits, unions in some places play a role, storage and delivery costs etc. etc. $3000 is ridiculous for a pair of binoculars, just like $2000 was ridiculous in 2008.

This high level of inflation is relatively new, maybe two years now. Prices on alphas went up before that, and you cited some reasons, which are certainly true for binoculars made in Germany where union wages are high and so are costs for materials. They pay higher taxes but they get "free" college and healthcare.

Due to most household goods sold in the US being made in China, the cost of many items have actually gone down (though so did the quality), but those savings were countermanded by many workers seeing their good paying manufacturing and distribution jobs get outsourced. Now many of them are working in the service sector at half the wages or less. I think this has been a major factor in the political upheaval in the US. Unfortunately, those who promised to fix the problem haven't. It didn't have happen overnight and tariffs alone aren't going to solve it.

Up until the pandemic when employers suddenly realized how indispensable "front line" workers were when they had no one to work in their restaurants or stores or factories, wages had remained static for decades. The US has suffered from rising income inequality and slow growth in the living standards of low- and moderate-income Americans of which I count myself.

Wage Stagnation in Nine Charts

Our country has suffered from rising income inequality and chronically slow growth in the living standards of low- and moderate-income Americans. This disappointing living-standards growth—which was in fact caused by rising income inequality—preceded the Great Recession and continues to this...

www.epi.org

Just like before there are people who will save up to buy these expensive pieces of equipment and then others that have deep pockets or have lots of zeros in their yearly incomes. Economic uncertainty is not enough to stop a lot of people from purchasing luxury items. it only becomes a problem and they stop buying when they can’t keep the electric on or heat their homes.

Unfortunately, true. Credit cards and delayed payment plans make it all too easy. But eventually you have to either pay the piper or declare bankruptcy. If we spiral into a recession, I think we could see mass bankruptcies like we did in 2008-2009.

there’s so many inexpensive very good binoculars on the market that would do the job for years to come, but that doesn’t mean anything. They’re a great reasonably economical cars, but people are still buying $75,000 cars to go from point a to point B , guilty.

If you work in a profession that allows you to buy a $75k vehicle, then a price jump from $2k to $3k for alphas is not going to have the same "sticker shock" as it would for someone who can only afford a $17,500 vehicle or a used $7,500 vehicle. Chinese binoculars are getting better, and there are still bargains to be found in mid-tier and top-tier Japanese and Euro bins on the used market if you are vigilant and patient. However, it's not like at the height of the pandemic when people were selling everything but the kitchen sink for bargain basement prices on eBay.

I think the pride of ownership is there but for many its secondary and not even important to some. I have clients that have hobbies and buy very expensive objects that they treat like cheap disposable toys. To each their own.

I think pride of ownership plays a big part in the purchase of many luxury items. People don't buy Teslas because they want to save the environment. The US might not be as class conscious as the UK, but it's definitely there.

I won't go as far as saying "to each his own," not when the rich keep getting richer and are allowed to evade paying taxes, but I don't want to ruffle any feathers (except on Ruffled Feathers), but this started out as a comment on the high cost of optics and people's ability to afford them, and that turns out to be a complicated subject beyond the scope of the binoculars forums.

Brock

 

[brocknroller]

For me, the EDG focuser puts it light-years ahead of the EL and UV+, even though they have great optics.

I had the 10x EDG out again yesterday for my dog walk, stopped by Deer Island in the Merrimack River, probably my favorite bird-watching spot in the whole world. Pretty quiet, no eagles, just me watching a young common Loon diving and eating fish.

There is something magical about using the EDG to view water - maybe the color balance? It's hard to describe but the water looks incredibly liquid-y and beautiful, really like using these for water birds. I noticed the same thing w/ the 7x. The lack of glare or flaring from the sun and skylight is probably part of it too.

I'm also finding a way to steady the hold more - I move my hands down the barrels, away from the focuser, and hold them down near the lenses. I exert slight pressure to push the eyecups against my brow, wedging them into position, it makes the view steady. So once focused I move my hands down to the "clamp" position and it works well.

That's what I did to steady the image with the 8x42 EDG II except that the barrels were so fat, I couldn't fit my fingers from both hands around both of them like I could with the EDG I, so I still had some shakes.

Perhaps you have a wider IPD, which would open the space between the barrels or smaller fingers?

With the 8x32 EDG, I do the same thing once I'm focused, but I can wrap my fingers around both barrels (three fingers from one hand, two from the other) because of the slimmer barrels. Of course, this doesn't work in all birding environments, but the field with the sumac trees where I went back to again today, the birds were all about the same distance, so I didn't need to refocus. Got there late, only robins in the trees and a lone Downy woodpecker. Most of the robins were on the ground looking for worms.

Brock

 

[Paultricounty]

I did but maybe you should get an eye exam, just in case.

I don’t want to, they may tell me I need glasses 😜

This high level of inflation is relatively new, maybe two years now. Prices on alphas went up before that, and you cited some reasons, which are certainly true for binoculars made in Germany where union wages are high and so are costs for materials. They pay higher taxes but they get "free" college and healthcare.

My point was that alphas and anything high end have been going up for decades for multiple reason I’ve described. I didn’t want to cherry pick each countries issues or constructs of local manufacturing.

Due to most household goods sold in the US being made in China, the cost of many items have actually gone down (though so did the quality), but those savings were countermanded by many workers seeing their good paying manufacturing and distribution jobs get outsourced. Now many of them are working in the service sector at half the wages or less. I think this has been a major factor in the political upheaval in the US. Unfortunately, those who promised to fix the problem haven't. It didn't have happen overnight and tariffs alone aren't going to solve it.

yes cheap household goods have been going down for the last 20 years because of cheap Chinese labor and undercutting. Nothing happens overnight in economics other than financial collapses.

Up until the pandemic when employers suddenly realized how indispensable "front line" workers were when they had no one to work in their restaurants or stores or factories, wages had remained static for decades. The US has suffered from rising income inequality and slow growth in the living standards of low- and moderate-income Americans of which I count myself.

companies didn’t have anybody to work because in the US and in many states they shut down restaurants delis small mom and pop stores etc. etc., because they weren’t essential. So the small companies mini went out of business at least in my area in New York. The politics devastated small business owners. In most eateries the state was saying nobody can enter unless they show a VAX card and they were making the owners police it, it didn’t go well. But at the same time places like Florida were booming. Actually wages were going up for the average worker from 2018 to 2020 a good amount for the first time in 20 years, give or take.

Wage Stagnation in Nine Charts

Our country has suffered from rising income inequality and chronically slow growth in the living standards of low- and moderate-income Americans. This disappointing living-standards growth—which was in fact caused by rising income inequality—preceded the Great Recession and continues to this...

www.epi.org

Unfortunately, true. Credit cards and delayed payment plans make it all too easy. But eventually you have to either pay the piper or declare bankruptcy. If we spiral into a recession, I think we could see mass bankruptcies like we did in 2008-2009.

Credit cards and delayed payments have been going on for decades, nothing new there. Did you say if we spiral into a recession, have you not seen the last two quarters of negative growth? Do you know that Is the definition of a recession that has been used for the last 40 years.

If you work in a profession that allows you to buy a $75k vehicle, then a price jump from $2k to $3k for alphas is not going to have the same "sticker shock" as it would for someone who can only afford a $17,500 vehicle or a used $7,500 vehicle. Chinese binoculars are getting better, and there are still bargains to be found in mid-tier and top-tier Japanese and Euro bins on the used market if you are vigilant and patient. However, it's not like at the height of the pandemic when people were selling everything but the kitchen sink for bargain basement prices on eBay.

I don’t know if a lot of people have noticed but those cheap Chinese items are dominating the mid-level quality optics market. It will only be a few more years when they dominate the upper mid grade level optics that is now owned by Japan. People were selling things in some states because they weren’t allowed to go to work, like in New York. The worst of it isn’t even close yet, if you look at all the data the trend is not looking good for the next two or three years. And if things get out of hand in East Europe, all bets are off.

I think pride of ownership plays a big part in the purchase of many luxury items. People don't buy Teslas because they want to save the environment. The US might not be as class conscious as the UK, but it's definitely there.

i’m not too sure a Tesla is a pride of ownership thing, they’re not built that well. I think it’s more like, see me I got a nice electric car.

I won't go as far as saying "to each his own," not when the rich keep getting richer and are allowed to evade paying taxes, but I don't want to ruffle any feathers (except on Ruffled Feathers), but this started out as a comment on the high cost of optics and people's ability to afford them, and that turns out to be a complicated subject beyond the scope of the binoculars forums.

The rich bet richer because they have money to make money, not because they don’t pay taxes. 45% pre-Covid numbers don’t pay any taxes at all. Those of people making under $50,000 a year. The people who pay the most amount in ratio are the middle and upper middle class, depending on where you are in the United States that can be from $80,000-$250,000 a year. You get banged in this bracket, believe I know. And if you’re a small business owner with one shop , up until trumps tax reform you paid 35% corporate income tax, yes 35%. Which by the way was one of the highest of the industrial nations. And that’s 35 cents of every dollar corporeally earned, then you get taxed on the income you get personally again. Don’t fall for crap you hear out in the propaganda world, that’s just a narrative.

Paul ✌🏼🙏🏼

Brock

 

[Patudo]

the high cost of optics and people's ability to afford them,

The irony is that decent and even good quality optics, new and used, are probably more available and affordable to more people now than ever before. I remember someone putting the cost of a Rangemaster into an inflation calculator and it worked out at something like $2,000+, basically not far off alpha prices. Back in the day the birder who wanted something decent but couldn't afford a Leitz or Zeiss West most often used an East German Zeiss or a Japanese porro. The equivalent today would be anything from a decent Opticron to a sub-alpha like the Conquest or Monarch HG, most of which are better birding tools. I agree $3,000 or whatever a NL costs is a lot of money for a binocular, but alphas are a luxury.

 

[brocknroller]

I don’t want to, they may tell me I need glasses 😜

My point was that alphas and anything high end have been going up for decades for multiple reason I’ve described. I didn’t want to cherry pick each countries issues or constructs of local manufacturing.

yes cheap household goods have been going down for the last 20 years because of cheap Chinese labor and undercutting. Nothing happens overnight in economics other than financial collapses.

companies didn’t have anybody to work because in the US and in many states they shut down restaurants delis small mom and pop stores etc. etc., because they weren’t essential. So the small companies mini went out of business at least in my area in New York. The politics devastated small business owners. In most eateries the state was saying nobody can enter unless they show a VAX card and they were making the owners police it, it didn’t go well. But at the same time places like Florida were booming. Actually wages were going up for the average worker from 2018 to 2020 a good amount for the first time in 20 years, give or take.

Yes, temporarily, thanks to the $1.5 trillion GOP tax cuts, but 80% of those cuts went (and still go) to the rich and corporations. By 2027, benefits of the tax law will flow entirely to the rich. So, it was an unneeded shot in the arm at a time when the economy had already recovered (which contributed to inflation). The real purpose was to benefit the rich including the politicians who passed the law. I received more pay for about a year and a half, Jan 2018-May 2019, but as a contractor, not from tax breaks, but from increased work. By fall of '19, that dried up and my pay rate actually dropped down to what it was in 2008. At the end of March 2020, the newspaper closed due to the pandemic.

Credit cards and delayed payments have been going on for decades, nothing new there. Did you say if we spiral into a recession, have you not seen the last two quarters of negative growth? Do you know that Is the definition of a recession that has been used for the last 40 years.

I don’t know if a lot of people have noticed but those cheap Chinese items are dominating the mid-level quality optics market. It will only be a few more years when they dominate the upper mid grade level optics that is now owned by Japan. People were selling things in some states because they weren’t allowed to go to work, like in New York. The worst of it isn’t even close yet, if you look at all the data the trend is not looking good for the next two or three years. And if things get out of hand in East Europe, all bets are off.

i’m not too sure a Tesla is a pride of ownership thing, they’re not built that well. I think it’s more like, see me I got a nice electric car.

Nice electric luxury car. They are cool looking like Musk's space ships and space suits. But if you want to send a message that you are pro-environment you can just buy a Prius. There are also many hybrids of trucks and cars that just have a small label that says "HYBRID" on them. But where's the prestige in that?

Most of the members of the State College Bird Club own Swarovski binoculars and scopes. Most are well-paid faculty members or staff members at Penn State. That's how I got to try a number of ELs and SLCs. I showed up to an event with a Nikon 8x32 SE, and they wondered what the heck is that? One member who had an 8x32 EL wanted to try the SE. So we swapped for about 15 minutes. She was impressed with the SE and was surprised that a $550 porro could be as sharp and contrasty as her $1500 EL.

I was impressed with the EL. Not only was it sharp and contrasty, but it was easy to hold as my SE. However, we were in the shade, had I tried the 8x32 EL in the sun, I would have found out how terrible it was handling flare, and I wouldn't have bought one later. The seller took returns, so I returned it. Lousy focuser, too. How the Wizards of Absam designed the 8x32 EL with all that flare is a wonder. Even my $200 8x32 Cabela Guide handles flare better.

The rich bet richer because they have money to make money, not because they don’t pay taxes. 45% pre-Covid numbers don’t pay any taxes at all. Those of people making under $50,000 a year. The people who pay the most amount in ratio are the middle and upper middle class, depending on where you are in the United States that can be from $80,000-$250,000 a year. You get banged in this bracket, believe I know. And if you’re a small business owner with one shop , up until trumps tax reform you paid 35% corporate income tax, yes 35%. Which by the way was one of the highest of the industrial nations. And that’s 35 cents of every dollar corporeally earned, then you get taxed on the income you get personally again. Don’t fall for crap you hear out in the propaganda world, that’s just a narrative.

Paul ✌🏼🙏🏼

Agreed, small business taxes in the US were excessive--70% of Americans work at small businesses and it's where most of the new jobs come from, so excessively taxing them was anti-growth. But big corporations that should bear a greater burden of the tax such as Big Oil make windfall profits with no tax hikes. The Dems proposed the Big Oil Windfall Profits Tax Act in March 2022, but GOP members wouldn't vote for it because Big Oil stuffs their campaign coffers (Joe Manchin's too). They didn't say that, of course, they said it would stifle job growth and raise gas prices.

Don't worry about me succumbing to propaganda Paul, I don't watch Fox News.

Brock

 

[brocknroller]

The irony is that decent and even good quality optics, new and used, are probably more available and affordable to more people now than ever before. I remember someone putting the cost of a Rangemaster into an inflation calculator and it worked out at something like $2,000+, basically not far off alpha prices. Back in the day the birder who wanted something decent but couldn't afford a Leitz or Zeiss West most often used an East German Zeiss or a Japanese porro. The equivalent today would be anything from a decent Opticron to a sub-alpha like the Conquest or Monarch HG, most of which are better birding tools. I agree $3,000 or whatever a NL costs is a lot of money for a binocular, but alphas are a luxury.

I had a Zeiss West 8x50 Octarem back in the day. I now have two $200 8x32 Cabela Guides that were made by Kamakura Koki, which are quite good. If my finances go sour, and I'm forced to sell my premium binoculars, I will still be able to enjoy birding while living in my car with my cats.

I know that not just the deep-pocketed buy alphas but some scrimp and save and cut down on other expenses to buy a top banana. I'd be too worried about marking it up to use it with impunity the way I do my Cabela's. I only took my Nikon 8x42 EDG on hikes twice, and they stayed in my backpack most of the time. I mostly used them on the porch yet the armoring still loosened and faded. I think that was beacuse to the original owner lived in Phoenix, AZ.

I saw someone selling a "like new" Zeiss HT during the pandemic for $900. I asked him why he was selling it, and he said he can't enjoy it because he babies it too much since he's worried about affecting its resale value. The next day, someone bought it, and he didn't have to worry about that anymore.

My mama (not Forest Gump's) said: Your problem is that you have Champaign taste but a Coca-Cola wallet. Still true, but today I would downgrade that to RC Cola

Brock

 

[Troubador]

Anyway, sorry if I came across as a cantankerous grumpy old git! 😳

You don't sound 'old' at all!

(Thats Yorkshire humour, you don't actually sound like any of those things)