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Emberizoidea (1 Viewer)

MJB

Well-known member
The divergence time analysis suggests all of their family-level clades split rapidly between 9-14 million years ago. This compares with a Fringillidae-Emberizoidea split of ~21 million years (this is a prior, rather than a result, of their analysis). These are definitely not ancient lineages.

To the sizeable minority who align with the calculations of Bishop Ussher (and others of that time), these lineages certainly are unacceptably ancient!:-O
MJB
 

fbarker

New member
It's listed in both in the advance access paper, but presumably mistakenly in the latter case.

Yeah, Icteria was moved to Icteriidae due to lack of resolution as sister group ti Icteridae, but the lead author failed to delete it from Icteridae. It will be fixed in proof.

Cheers
 

pianoman

duck and diver, bobolink and weaver
I can't think of a good reason for splitting Old World Buntings and New World Sparrows. Buntings differ from each other at least as much as any of them differ from NW sparrows. So a Yellowhammer and Rock Bunting would be in the same family, but Rock Bunting and White-crowned Sparrow in different families?
 

fbarker

New member
I can't think of a good reason for splitting Old World Buntings and New World Sparrows. Buntings differ from each other at least as much as any of them differ from NW sparrows. So a Yellowhammer and Rock Bunting would be in the same family, but Rock Bunting and White-crowned Sparrow in different families?

That argument hinges on a "degree of difference" criterion in determining taxonomic rank. Given that ranking of taxa is an art rather than a science, opinions on the validity of that approach will differ. However, evidence is mounting that buntings and sparrows are not sister taxa, and I don't think you can argue that yellowhammers and rock buntings have less in common than white-crowned sparrows and red-legged honeycreepers. The only way to keep them in the same family would be to bung all the Emberizoidea (warblers, tanagers, sparrows, buntings, blackbirds, etc.) into one family (Emberizidae), as others on this thread have suggested. I wouldn't be surprised to see some taxonomies taking that route, in which case all of the families listed above become subfamilies (still family-level groups governed by the Code).

However, taxonomies are tools that gain at least some of their usefulness from stability. From that perspective, it makes sense to keep recognizing the five families New World ornithologists have been using for many decades, and rearrange the rest to fit, as done here.
 

MichaelRetter

Michael L. P. Retter
I can't think of a good reason for splitting Old World Buntings and New World Sparrows. Buntings differ from each other at least as much as any of them differ from NW sparrows. So a Yellowhammer and Rock Bunting would be in the same family, but Rock Bunting and White-crowned Sparrow in different families?

Well, for one, many Old World buntings exhibit strong sexual dimorphism, while it's pretty rare (Dark-eyed Junco, Harris's Sparrow, Lark Bunting) in New World sparrows.
 

Mysticete

Well-known member
United States
I would also say Old World Buntings are on whole more colorful, and having observed both, there is a subtly different jizz in behavior between the two. New World Sparrows IMHO are generally more skulky and outside of the breeding season generally stay closer to the ground.
 

Ian Lewis

aka Gryllo
Europe
NW Sparrows vs OW Buntings

I would say the biggest difference is in bill structure, with OW buntings typically having a more swollen lower mandible with the cutting edge turned downwards near to the point where it meets the gape.

I don't see that many NW sparrows but this feature doesn't seem to be a character of the whole group.

Ian
 

Richard Klim

-------------------------
Barker et al 2013 pdf

Going to Extremes: Contrasting Rates of Diversification in a Recent Radiation of New World Passerine Birds
F. Keith Barker, Kevin J. Burns, John Klicka, Scott M. Lanyon and Irby J. Lovette
As Rick demonstrated, there's now free access: Barker et al 2013. Syst Biol 62(2): 298–320. [pdf]
 

Melanie

Well-known member
Melozone biarcuata

Zootaxa 3895 (1): 103–116 (12 Dec. 2014)
Analysis of plumage, morphology, and voice reveals species-level differences between two subspecies of Prevost’s Ground-sparrow Melozone biarcuata (Prévost and Des Murs) (Aves: Emberizidae)
LUIS SANDOVAL, PIERRE-PAUL BITTON, STÉPHANIE M. DOUCET & DANIEL J. MENNILL

[Abstract]
 

Richard Klim

-------------------------
Barker et al 2015

Barker, Burns, Klicka, Lanyon & Lovette 2015. New insights into New World biogeography: An integrated view from the phylogeny of blackbirds, cardinals, sparrows, tanagers, warblers, and allies. Auk 132(2): 333–348. [abstract] [pdf]
 

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