• BirdForum is the net's largest birding community dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE!

    Register for an account to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Endurance test of binoculars (1 Viewer)

eitanaltman

Well-known member
Allbinos ... could have reported their results to Leica (and other water logged victims), waited two weeks for replies and then published their results. Imagine the effect of saying "well, we gave them two weeks to investigate and get back to us...but they didn't." Now that might influence me. As it is, we don't know where the bins in question are at the moment. Does Leica have them in house?


Ahem....


Hi!

The official distributor of Leica was informed about poor result of both Leicas. They asked for quick return of the binoculars to send them back to the headquarters for inspection. A week or so after returning I was asked by e-mail what kind of water was used in waterproof test. I answered that normal water from the tap. It was last message from Leica I got. I waited a couple of months with the publication of the whole endurance test - it was enough time for explanation and the reaction. I got nothing. In the earlier phone call with the distributor I informed that I would be happy to publish the official statement of Leica, when the full analysis of the damaged Leica binoculars will be finished.

Arek


I assume the response will be that because there was no video of Arek sending it back to Leica you can't believe it actually happened, right? B :)


Arek -- I do think in the interest of fairness you should acknowledge a couple of the points raised, for example the fact that Leica's diopter scale window isn't claimed to be waterproof. I think some would appreciate learning about the order of testing as well, since that has been brought up a few times.
 

Arek

Well-known member
The order was as described in the test: low temperature, high temperature, bath, falls.
In all binoculars exactly the same. Each part of the test was separated from another by couple of days.

Diopter scale window immersion had no influence on scoring.
 

eitanaltman

Well-known member
Thanks Arek. The procedure was described but it wasn't clear that the actual order of testing was the same as the order that the procedure was listed.

I guess that eliminates the impact of the fall test as a culprit for compromising the seals integrity on bins which failed the water test.
 

Pileatus

"Experientia Docet”
United States
Ahem....





I assume the response will be that because there was no video of Arek sending it back to Leica you can't believe it actually happened, right? B :)


Arek -- I do think in the interest of fairness you should acknowledge a couple of the points raised, for example the fact that Leica's diopter scale window isn't claimed to be waterproof. I think some would appreciate learning about the order of testing as well, since that has been brought up a few times.
Outstanding.
Now, Arek should include the Leica contact information in the official, online test at Allbinos, not here on BF. Make it part of the "record".
Arek should also remove the complaint about the diopter window and include the testing sequence.

PS
Feedback is a powerful tool. Your assumptions about me are silly.
 
Last edited:

Holger Merlitz

Well-known member
Outstanding.
Now, Arek should include the Leica contact information in the official, online test at Allbinos, not here on BF. Make it part of the "record".
Arek should also remove the complaint about the diopter window and include the testing sequence.

PS
Feedback is a powerful tool. Your assumptions about me are silly.

Excuse me? How comes you demand what Arek "should do next"? This is his test, his report, you are reading it free of charge, you may not tell him what he should do next.

You want a better report? Do the test, write a report, and everybody is happy.

Head shaking,
Holger
 

dalat

...
I don't see what's wrong with critisising a published test and suggesting improvements that would indeed improve quality, and thus also the credibility of the author. Could be done more politely though, I agree.

Of course Arek can do what he want's with his test, and he also doesn't need to answer to critisim's here neither, that's up to him. So it's nice to see he responded to one or two of the points. There are still a couple of other valid critisms in this discussion though, that could be answered, but of course that's up to him.

Florian
 

oetzi

Well-known member
Its difficult to believe that Leica is so dump as not to respond to such catastrophic failures in a review. Someone should tell them this is the 21st century and information is more freely available than only 20 years ago. But maybe in another 20 years they will have learned how to play the web.
 

Valéry Schollaert

Respect animals, don't eat or wear their body or s
Excuse me? How comes you demand what Arek "should do next"? This is his test, his report, you are reading it free of charge, you may not tell him what he should do next.

You want a better report? Do the test, write a report, and everybody is happy.

Head shaking,
Holger

Advice to those who would do such a report, including Arek if ever you do that again. Please include Kite optics. By experience I know this is the best quality for value and probably the strongest.

I've been lucky enough to receive a pair from the brand with instructions to test them for the strength (it was the first Kite Bonelli model in 2004).

I put them in snow in Belgique in February, in the Moroccan sand in April, in the wet forest of Panama (where my Swaro was covered by fog and my Kite ready to be used) in March, in the sea water for seawatching in France, and I experience any problem. I cannot publish a test as I didn"t compare with other brands in same conditions, but I really like to know objectively what would be the result.

Cheers
 

Gijs van Ginkel

Well-known member
Dear all,
During the vast amount of endurance tests we have performed many binoculars of different brands have taken a bath sometimes for more than a week to investigate among others whether they were watertight and sometimes a model leaked water. We always thought that it was a fair approach to inform the producer first and ask if they knew about it and what could be the cause. As fas as Leica was concerned: they reacted very positive: the binocular under investigation was returned, the cause was identified and we got it back for a second test together with another instrument and both did not leak any water. We had similar experiences with other brands and for your information: Swarovski and Kite binoculars never leaked water even under the most harsh conditions. I know about a test of an Austrian spectacle shop in Vienna, which had a Swarovski binocular in its shop window. The binocular was attached to a machine which lifted it to half a meter high and arrived at the top the binocular was dropped with a smash into a bucket filled with water. And that process of lifting and free fall was repeated over and over: a continuous process going on for more than half a year and after that the binocular was taken out, dried with a cloth on the outside, no water was inside, the instrument was directly ready for use. I have visited the shop and I have spoken about it with the shopkeeper.
Gijs
 

dalat

...
I know about a test of an Austrian spectacle shop in Vienna, which had a Swarovski binocular in its shop window. The binocular was attached to a machine which lifted it to half a meter high and arrived at the top the binocular was dropped with a smash into a bucket filled with water.

Well, that sounds like a nice show, but not much more. As I understand it, the seals in a binocular are either ok, which they normally are, or they are not, which sometime seem to happen in any brand. So a normal binocular with intact seals would easily survive this test, be it Swaro, Leica or Zen. I don't think that the repeated drop in water would cause much stress to the bin.

As you mentionned that in your tests, only Swaros (and Kites) have never leaked, I just want to recall that still they sometimes do. We have proof here in birdform, there are some pics of Swarovisions with mould inside (and a Zeiss Fl is currently suspected too).

My conclusion of all these tests, reports and discussion is simple: usually waterproofness of binoculars can be trused, regardless of price and brand. Defects can happen though, again regardless of price and brand. If it happens, good to have a brand with a good repair policy.
 

Pileatus

"Experientia Docet”
United States
Excuse me? How comes you demand what Arek "should do next"? This is his test, his report, you are reading it free of charge, you may not tell him what he should do next.

You want a better report? Do the test, write a report, and everybody is happy.

Head shaking,
Holger
Holger,

I demanded nothing.
Arek is free to do what he wants. Since his credibility is solely based on the Allbinos report I will again suggest he make corrections and enhancements that will clarify his methods and conclusions.

John
 
Last edited:

eitanaltman

Well-known member
Perhaps if you adopted a less shrill, accusatory/conspiratorial tone with your "healthy criticism", people wouldn't react so strongly, allowing the several perfectly valid points you have made to rise above the muck and be taken more seriously. It's not a coincidence that your posts have generated the most heated blowback from several folks on this thread, and it's not because the people responding lack critical thinking skills. Consider the way you frame your words.

Just a thought.
 

Pileatus

"Experientia Docet”
United States
Perhaps if you adopted a less shrill, accusatory/conspiratorial tone with your "healthy criticism", people wouldn't react so strongly, allowing the several perfectly valid points you have made to rise above the muck and be taken more seriously. It's not a coincidence that your posts have generated the most heated blowback from several folks on this thread, and it's not because the people responding lack critical thinking skills. Consider the way you frame your words.

Just a thought.
Perhaps you could be more specific. I faithfully quoted the Allbinos article, commented, and then listened to responses that were based on whim and fancy. I made no accusations or in any way suggested a conspiracy of any sort. In error, you came to that conclusion all on your own.

The Allbinos article was extremely critical of Leica. Leica was mocked and readers were told not to buy the brand unless they were interested in red dots. That tidbit alone should raised numerous doubts in my mind about the author's objectivity. There was simply too much emotion in the mix.

Had the article included the dialogue with Leica, the wait time, and the lack of response from Leica I would viewed the situation quite differently. I still find it unreasonable to condemn an entire product line based on single samples (one Ultravid, one Geovid), but the fact that Leica had ample opportunity to respond and failed to do so is certainly germane.

Again, please cite specifics. I'll be happy to address your concerns.
 
Last edited:

R.B.

Well-known member
I really apprecciate that healthy criticism caused that one (lets state it openly - not verified - how healthy criticism could think that they really send it to Leica - neither even videotaped) statement of "tester" could change the attitude prersented for example in (let me quote only one - and not carefully selected - of someone's opinions presented here): "I think the Allbinos "tests" are a major fail".
Why do I think so? Because now word TEST was written without meaningful quotation marks |:d|

Ooops, sorry, it is not true that just one statement caused it. More or less the same information (about binos being returned to Leica) was provided by Arek in page 1 of that looong thread.
 

elkcub

Silicon Valley, California
United States
Just to inform you. I've just got phone call from Leica Sport Optics. The case will be continued.

Hello Arek,

I'm not saying this to be insulting, argumentative, or to restart a technical dispute with Holger, who is certainly free to defend you or express his own views. I would rather take this opportunity to point out that if Allbinos' findings are cast into a statistical framework, which I seriously recommend against, that one should be mindful of responsible product testing conventions, and how to present impartial conclusions that are helpful to the potential buyer while not being unnecessarily damaging to the manufacturer.

A professional consultant might be in order because this is a specialty area and statistical reasoning is not for the faint of heart. Fortunately, however, I've just discovered there are on-line tools available that might meet your general needs PRODUCT TESTING STATISTICAL TOOLS. But, even so they should be well understood, since they can be misused.

In this case, you are dealing with single Bernoulli trials from each of two product lines, so they should be analyzed separately. A waterproof probability p = .95 is claimed by the manufacturer, which, if true, would give the buyer a 1 in 20 risk of buying a leaky product. One in twenty really isn't all that high when you think about it, but many people are impressed when it's stated as 5% rejects, even better, .05. Such is advertising.

Plugging numbers into this tool, the standard deviation of a Binomial sampling distribution of independent Bernoulli trials is (p*(1-p))^.5 = .2179. I've selected an initial value for mu(1) as .90. What we are estimating is the sample size needed to draw a conclusion that the buyer's acceptable risk should really be downgraded 1 in 10 rather than 1 in 20. The computation tells us that for adequate resolution of the two hypotheses a sample of N = 118 is needed, assuming statistical power of only .80. This means that only 80%, or 4 out of 5, of such conclusions need to be correct. If the buyer's acceptable risk were further downgraded to 3 in 10, then a sample of 5 would do the trick, and if the acceptable risk were decreased to 4 in 10 only a single sample would be needed at the Alpha = .05 level of confidence (assuming all else was perfect). But, since a confidence level of .05 is also questionable for an important decision, setting Alpha = .01 would only increase the necessary sample sizes to 191, 8, and 4, respectively.

Now let's reverse the process and use the calculator to determine statistical power for a fixed sample size of N = 1. (Click the Calculate Power button at top.) For mu(1) = .9, the power is only .04. Hence, the experimenter's reliability in drawing this modest conclusion is only 4%. As you can see, however, inserting N = 118 increases the power to 80% as shown in the earlier calculation.

It should be clear that experimenter reliability (statistical power) vs alternative consumer risk is the nature of statistical product evaluation. A single Bernoulli trial (i.e., N = 1) has almost no power, so your tests should be presented in a different framework.

Hope this helps your endeavor. I've got nothing against what you're doing, but I do think it's more meaningful to help the potential buyer make an informed decision than wag a finger at the manufacturer. That's what impartial evaluation is all about.

Ed
 

Attachments

  • Sample size mu(1) = .90.pdf
    279.5 KB · Views: 563
  • Sample size mu(1) = .70.pdf
    279.5 KB · Views: 666
Last edited:

elkcub

Silicon Valley, California
United States
The Leica's aren't waterproof. They scored the same as Tasco in this regard 0/10.

That's quite right. Finding a single non-waterproof product proves that they are not all waterproof (under the test conditions). Much larger samples would be required to determine if Leica and Tasco had the same waterproof properties, but with N =1 we can not jump to that conclusion.
Appropriate statistical tests are most likely "non-parametric" in nature. Again, sample size determines resolving power.

Ed
 
Last edited:

oetzi

Well-known member
From what we know so far, Leica could have issued a statement, given their side of the affair and allbinos would have it included.

They didnt, so Arek´s findings stand for themself and alone. (I would have thought it proper for Arek to supply the information that Leica was informed beforehand and choose not to answer.) If Leica thinks that not communicating is a good thing to sit this out, now thats pretty dumb in these times of the open web.

On the other hand, I think that readers of the endurance test can think for themselves, value and judge that only two binoculars from Leica were subjected to this procedure.
 

elkcub

Silicon Valley, California
United States
From what we know so far, Leica could have issued a statement, given their side of the affair and allbinos would have it included.

They didnt, so Arek´s findings stand for themself and alone. (I would have thought it proper for Arek to supply the information that Leica was informed beforehand and choose not to answer.) If Leica thinks that not communicating is a good thing to sit this out, now thats pretty dumb in these times of the open web.

On the other hand, I think that readers of the endurance test can think for themselves, value and judge that only two binoculars from Leica were subjected to this procedure.

Based on post #275, it's very interesting that Leica has agreed to "continue" the case, in the face of the fact that Allbinos "continues" to broadcast damaging and unsupportable opinions about them based on single samples from different product lines. Agreeing to continue the case sounds like damage control to me, and I'd wager, purely as a stochastic gamble, of course ;), that someone's career within the company may be in jeopardy for having agreed to participate in the first place.

Amateur reviewers don't have any skin in the game; companies like Leica risk millions in sales. Given what's going on, the smart ones were clearly those that sat on the sidelines — regardless of heckling by reviewers who appear to back-stop each other. Professional product evaluators would have skin in the game, namely their business reputations and the prospects of unfair defamation litigation.

This may be the only time I've found myself defending a large corporation as the underdog (I'll repent later), but Über quality they certainly can claim for the Über rich, and those who appreciate an Über beautiful creation.

Ed
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Top