Epipactis identification - England (1 Viewer)

[Ghostly Vision]

Hi everyone.

The photo attached was taken at a site in Bucks which is a trditional one for Epipactis leptochila - Narrow-lipped helleborine.

However, there has been some debate recently in that all of the plants clearly show viscidia, which proves them to be cross-pollinated. This should, to my knowledge, mean that they are in fact Epipactis helleborine -
Broad-leaved helleborine.

In all other respects they look exactly like leptochila - two rows of leaves going up the stem, leaves not broader than long, all flowers are pale with pinkish sides to the epichile, which is long and pointed. They are also quite "weedy" specimins. There is a single obvious E helleborine further down the same bank but this plant looks classic in every sense and is not confusable at all.

Anyone any ideas? Can leptochila show viscidia?

BTW sorry about the crap photo - it's dark in those woods, no flash or tripod.

Any comments gratefully accepted.

Sean

 

[maslyni]

Depauperate helleborine, a la Lincolnshire. You know it makes sense )


M.

 

[rmielcarek]

Sean

your pictures look very similar to the Narrow-lipped illustrated in the Lang Wildguides 'Britains orchids', see

http://www.britainsorchids.fieldguide.co.uk/?PP=species_account&SPID=10&SHC=2&PSD=1

 

[Ghostly Vision]

Hi Richard

That's because they are taken at the same site! I know John Devries, who took the photo's in the Lang book, and he has confirmed the pics were taken at the very place mine were.

Have to say, I'm with M, but the plants look so dissimilar to BLH it seems strange. Maybe there's a new var. in it for us....

 

[Ghostly Vision]

As an update to this episode I heard yesterday that these plants (or at least some of them) have been "confirmed" as E. leptochila var. neglecta by a prominent Botanist.

The picture in Delforge on p91 certainly shows similar-looking plants to these, including the viscidia. On other pics I have of these plants the epichile is folded back under the hypochile.

Curious...

Sean

 

[Nelbert]

As an update to this episode I heard yesterday that these plants (or at least some of them) have been "confirmed" as E. leptochila var. neglecta by a prominent Botanist.

The picture in Delforge on p91 certainly shows similar-looking plants to these, including the viscidia. On other pics I have of these plants the epichile is folded back under the hypochile.

Curious...

Sean

I've seen Epipactis leptochila sp. neglecta in SW Germany and it certainly looks very similar. From memory, I think this sub-species flowers a touch earlier than normal narrow-lipped helleborine, though that's in Germany.....

 

[Ghostly Vision]

Nelbert and all,

As another post script to this episode, the plants in Lincolnshire have caused headaches for a time now; they appear to be Dune hellebroine, but have viscidia and should therefore be Broad-leaved as they are cross-pollinated.

These are the plants that Mark mentions above as depauperate BLH.

However, those have now been confirmed as Dune helleborine. This shed a new light on Epipactis identification for me, as it means that the basic starting point (cross- or self-pollinated) has just been almost eradicated!

It might, however, pave the way for the plants in question on this thread to indeed be Narrow-lipped, even though they clearly have viscidia.

As a post-script to these Bucks plants I was told that another eminent botanist had decalred they were NOT neglecta.

It seems clear that identification and maybe even the speciation/subspeciation of the Epipactis group is far from sorted.

Sean

 

[Nelbert]

Nelbert and all,

As another post script to this episode, the plants in Lincolnshire have caused headaches for a time now; they appear to be Dune hellebroine, but have viscidia and should therefore be Broad-leaved as they are cross-pollinated.

These are the plants that Mark mentions above as depauperate BLH.

However, those have now been confirmed as Dune helleborine. This shed a new light on Epipactis identification for me, as it means that the basic starting point (cross- or self-pollinated) has just been almost eradicated!

It might, however, pave the way for the plants in question on this thread to indeed be Narrow-lipped, even though they clearly have viscidia.

As a post-script to these Bucks plants I was told that another eminent botanist had decalred they were NOT neglecta.

It seems clear that identification and maybe even the speciation/subspeciation of the Epipactis group is far from sorted.

Sean

Cheers Sean - I live up the road from the Lincolnshire plants and they've certainly caused a few scratched heads round here. If we're talking about the plants on a reserve not far from Lincoln, I didn't know that the current thinking was Dune, they're in somewhat atypical habitat for Dunensis - though not outrageously so.

The Epipiactis group has always been a challenge - what with the furore about first Young's, then sancta - no doubt the next debate will relate to 'Tyne' Helleborine!

 

[Ghostly Vision]

Hi Nelbert,

Yes, the plants are the same ones at a place beginning with M. The BSBI referee has confirmed them. There are a lot of people to my knowledge who think it might be a sign his retirement is on the horizon...I'll be going to look this year when they're fresh.

Well, I had also heard that sancta was to be put back in with dunensis too, though I've not seen anything published to that effect.

Tyne helleborine has of course been looked at and current thinking is that this is dunensis also, but (from memory) var. tynensis. Remember that the habitat preference of tynensis is also very different to the dune form of dunensis.

It seems that dunensis is a big superspecies. The Lincs plants are still unique in that they are cross-pollinated though. I wonder if the Bucks ones in this thread are are dunensis too, in a shady belt of Beeches on clay-with flints?

Lump 'em I say!!

Cheers

Sean

 

[Nelbert]

Hi Nelbert,

Yes, the plants are the same ones at a place beginning with M. The BSBI referee has confirmed them. There are a lot of people to my knowledge who think it might be a sign his retirement is on the horizon...I'll be going to look this year when they're fresh.

Well, I had also heard that sancta was to be put back in with dunensis too, though I've not seen anything published to that effect.

Tyne helleborine has of course been looked at and current thinking is that this is dunensis also, but (from memory) var. tynensis. Remember that the habitat preference of tynensis is also very different to the dune form of dunensis.

It seems that dunensis is a big superspecies. The Lincs plants are still unique in that they are cross-pollinated though. I wonder if the Bucks ones in this thread are are dunensis too, in a shady belt of Beeches on clay-with flints?

Lump 'em I say!!

Cheers

Sean

Give us a shout when you go!!

Neil

 

[rmielcarek]

Sean

in the latest HOS journal C A J Kreutz is suggesting that, having seen the Bucks plants, he thinks they are var cordata.

Also that the Fragrants in South Wales are var friesica.

Interesting feature on the Avon Gorge trollii suggesting they are different from Wasps elsewhere in the country.

Rich M

 

[Binocularface]

Lump 'em I say!!

Then what would do in July

 

[Ghostly Vision]

Sean

in the latest HOS journal C A J Kreutz is suggesting that, having seen the Bucks plants, he thinks they are var cordata.

Also that the Fragrants in South Wales are var friesica.

Interesting feature on the Avon Gorge trollii suggesting they are different from Wasps elsewhere in the country.

Rich M

Hi Richard,

Yes, I got the HOS journal the same time as you by the sounds of it.

As you'd expect, I've opinions on the article, but they are not for posting on a public forum. Next time I see you we can have a chat

I plan to write a private note to il presidente for his opinions on my opinions - I'll let you know the result.

The trollii article by John Spencer I thought was something of a revelation. The Cheddar ones really don't look like what I'd expect trollii to look like! Maybe another var on our hands...

Can't remember seeing any Fragrants during our jaunt to Kenfig last year - can you? I think the man does have a point on that one.

Cheers

Sean

ps Tris - keep looking, you will help me to publish the first formal description of the new Dunensis var/subsp. Reidii

 

[rmielcarek]

Hi Sean

if I recall all the Fragrants had gone over by the time we visited Kenfig last year. Keep meaning to ask Howard if he has any pics of them from past years.

Have you not seen the Wasps in the Avon Gorge? You'll have to come and have a look - there's only a few and they are in a bit of an awkward place. Interestingly last year Howard found a Bee orchid about 100 yards away with one flower open that looked like a cross between a Bee and a Wasp - when I saw it a few days later it had 2 flowers open and each was different. I'll dig out my pics and mail them to you.

Can you send me directions for the Lincs helleborines sometime please.

Rich M

 

[Ghostly Vision]

Hi Richard,

Would relish the opportunity to see the Avon Wasps - are they the same plants as in the Journal? I thought the bank had been destroyed.

Have forwarded you the Lincs directions

Have you seen the Bucks ones in question on this thread? Not far from a very rare species that I gave you directions for a few years ago (one that also occurs in Gloucs). You really must see these - could be the only population in the whole country!

Sean

 

[rmielcarek]

Sean

yes, we saw the Bucks ones last year; you gave me the directions thanks.

Rich

 

[Ghostly Vision]

So many sites, so many requests!! What an eejit.

 

[Nelbert]

Hi Sean,

I'm down in Bucks/Oxfordshire for a long weekend this summer - could you PM me the location of these so I can have a look?

Cheers

Neil

 

[Ghostly Vision]

As an update on this population for those interested, the identification is far from confirmed.

Material has been taken from the plants for DNA analysis, but it will be some time before a comprehensive answer if forthcoming. However, a test to check whether they are of hybrid origin is imminent.

Further study is to be carried out on this and the Lincs populations this year.

Nelbert - ref Tyne helleborine, this has been assigned subspecific status (of dunensis) by Kreutz recently.

Sean