Eradicating Grey Squirrels - the natural way. Monbiot article (1 Viewer)

[angusmcoatup]

An article from George Monbiot which if accurate would be a much more intelligent solution to reducing Grey Squirrel numbers than trapping, poisoning and shooting.

Any BF members noticed a difference in the studied area of Ireland?

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...-squirrels-without-firing-a-shot-pine-martens

 

[Sangahyando]

One thing that confuses me, quoting from the article:

“Grey squirrel sightings accounted for less than 8% of animal sightings in [the Irish Midlands], which is remarkably low considering that they are a much less elusive species than either the red squirrel or the pine marten, and are also more commonly associated with human settlements.”

In the places in continental Europe where I've seen Red Squirrel, they aren't really that elusive. At least not regarding humans. In Germany, they're one of the easiest to see mammals, superceded pretty much only by rabbits and Roedeer. In my experience, it's not uncommon to see one sitting in a tree close by, chattering angrily at you for some reason. They're also commonly found in cities, provided there are trees around, of course.
Pine Martens, on the other hand...

 

[King Edward]

Good article. The original paper is well worth a look - the pdf can be downloaded free from here: Sheehy & Lawton 2014

 

[pppppvvvv]

One thing that confuses me, quoting from the article:


In the places in continental Europe where I've seen Red Squirrel, they aren't really that elusive. At least not regarding humans. In Germany, they're one of the easiest to see mammals, superceded pretty much only by rabbits and Roedeer. In my experience, it's not uncommon to see one sitting in a tree close by, chattering angrily at you for some reason. They're also commonly found in cities, provided there are trees around, of course.
Pine Martens, on the other hand...

Grey squirrels can be pretty much Feral in the UK, so I wouldn't have noticed anything erroneous about the original quote Sangahyando.

Incidentally in our garden, and similar sized to a Pine Marten, the introduction of a Cairn Terrier resulted in Grey Squirrel numbers going from 10 to 0 in a flash.. but I wouldn't recommend that as a viable widespread solution!

 

[Sangahyando]

I guess my point is that Red Squirrels are much less elusive than Pine Martens (have yet to see a live Pine Marten, unfortunately).

 

[pppppvvvv]

I see. Yes, that is likely true also.. Grey Squirrel < Red Squirrel < Pine Marten
With some examples of overlap between the tameness of the two squirrels maybe

 

[locustella]

Maybe fighting alien species is pointless. Range expanding caused by human activities is like entropy - one directional, irreversible process. The continents got joined. The only limiting factor is the size - larger animals can be easily shot out. Squirrels seem to be below that level and can't be eradicated.
So be cool and wait for selfestablishing of the new ecological balance and try to like alien species. Because if you don't want to like them, you will live with animals you dislike.
Many years ago when I was in the USA (what was very interesting and I still miss), I had to fill in around tons of forms with field what was my native language, what is my race. I learned first time in my life the word "caucasian" and the word "native" was one of most frequently repeated and first words I learned too. From forms everywhere. And when someone has memorized only a small number of words, some of them can be used too frequently or in a little different sense.
silly caucasian girl likes to play with samurai swords:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWY11o5Hnvw
(Kill Bill, The Bride Vs. O-Ren, 4.17)

 

[Jos Stratford]

One thing that confuses me, quoting from the article:


In the places in continental Europe where I've seen Red Squirrel, they aren't really that elusive. At least not regarding humans. In Germany, they're one of the easiest to see mammals, superceded pretty much only by rabbits and Roedeer. In my experience, it's not uncommon to see one sitting in a tree close by, chattering angrily at you for some reason. They're also commonly found in cities, provided there are trees around, of course.
Pine Martens, on the other hand...

In Lithuania however, while Red Squirrels are not especially rare, they are far from abundant too - I generally see them only once every couple of months or so. But Pine Martens are dirt common I would certainly expect the low density of squirrels to have some relationship to the high density of martens.

 

[Mike Richardson]

In Lithuania however, while Red Squirrels are not especially rare, they are far from abundant too - I generally see them only once every couple of months or so.

I think the same is true for much of the Eurasian Red Squirrels native range. At certain times of the year they can be very difficult to find away from parks where they're fed by humans.

 

[locustella]

fed by humans.

This sounds like sci-fi terminology, but it helps to see that people are only one of many species on Earth. Such distance helps to see better how dangerous is ignoring the existence of species extinction, pollution, global warming. Chinese deserts are full of bones of dragons (dinosaurs), human bones are much more fragile. Do you think that extinction of H. sapiens would be more serious and prominent event than extinction of dinosaurs ? That would be one second. How long dinosaurs were existing ? Since when people don't use bludgeon, how many civilizations vanished ? But this time it would be much more painful and devastating.

 

[Farnboro John]

For once I agree with GM. Pine Martens should be reintroduced to suitable areas of England forthwith (I would say this even if there were no Grey Squirrels BTW).

I suggest the New Forest, Dartmoor and Exmoor, Ashdown Forest, the Forest of Dean, Windsor Great Park and Sherwood Forest would be good for a start.

John

 

[Mike Richardson]

What are the negative impacts of reintroducing Pine Martens back into England and Wales? We all know Wild Boar cause traffic fatalities, dig up gardens and football pitches, terrorise walkers, kill pigs owned by royalty etc, etc. Beavers cause floods, destroy crops and woodland, prevent salmon migrating etc, etc.

What are the zoophobic, anti-wildlife brigade saying about a possible marten introduction?

 

[david kelly]

What are the negative impacts of reintroducing Pine Martens back into England and Wales? We all know Wild Boar cause traffic fatalities, dig up gardens and football pitches, terrorise walkers, kill pigs owned by royalty etc, etc. Beavers cause floods, destroy crops and woodland, prevent salmon migrating etc, etc.

What are the zoophobic, anti-wildlife brigade saying about a possible marten introduction?

I was going to suggest reading the comments in the Guardian but after having done that I would strongly suggest you don't.

David

I must not read comments on news websites
I must not read comments on news websites
I must not read comments on news websites
I must not read comments on news websites
.............

 

[Sangahyando]

In Lithuania however, while Red Squirrels are not especially rare, they are far from abundant too - I generally see them only once every couple of months or so. But Pine Martens are dirt common I would certainly expect the low density of squirrels to have some relationship to the high density of martens.

Well, I guess there might be a correlation. Im guessing your high Pine Marten population is due to more suitable habitats, less traffic, and so on (compared to C/W Europe).

By the way, don't Beech Martens also eat squirrels (e.g. in parks)? Or are they too slow?

 

[locustella]

Pine Martens were natural element of British ecosystems, so they could be reintroduced. But there is no guarantee, that they will eradicate that squirrel, because it is an alien species. We would still deal with not natural, not previously encountered combination of elements. But at least this is more normal than gun.

 

[Farnboro John]

Pine Martens were natural element of British ecosystems, so they could be reintroduced. But there is no guarantee, that they will eradicate that squirrel, because it is an alien species. We would still deal with not natural, not previously encountered combination of elements. But at least this is more normal than gun.

No, there is no guarantee. But the evidence from the analagous situation in Ireland is encouraging.

John

 

[jurek]

Encouraging, but I want to point that Grey Squirrels are not 'eradicated' but become rarer, and with '6% frequency of sightings' are still relatively common. It might make it possible to finish this species by culling, though.

About Pine Martens - in Continent, the situation is mixed. In Poland, they are found even in smaller woods and large city parks. In NW Europe, they seem to be more localized in larger woods, and House Marten is more common. In any case, they should be at home in England. One problem for them may be collisions with cars and dense network of roads. They are well known predators of hole-nesting birds, but all the species tolerate their presence.

 

[crazyfingers]

I realize that gray squirrels in Europe are invasive, by human doing, but here they are just part of the natural landscape. They can be pests but I like them. They find food and have fun. The naturalist and children's book author Thornton Burges called the gray squirrel Happy Jack. It suits them.

Red squirrels too are natural here and so different than Happy Jack. Always nattering and scolding anyone who passes by.

House Sparrows from Europe on the other hand, they are an infestation.

 

[Farnboro John]

Encouraging, but I want to point that Grey Squirrels are not 'eradicated' but become rarer, and with '6% frequency of sightings' are still relatively common. It might make it possible to finish this species by culling, though.

About Pine Martens - in Continent, the situation is mixed. In Poland, they are found even in smaller woods and large city parks. In NW Europe, they seem to be more localized in larger woods, and House Marten is more common. In any case, they should be at home in England. One problem for them may be collisions with cars and dense network of roads. They are well known predators of hole-nesting birds, but all the species tolerate their presence.

Well, we have a number of hole-nesting bird issues they might help with, quite possibly connected to the two below:

- Great Spotted Woodpecker increase
- Ring-necked Parakeet

Possible knock-ons from the above include decline of Lesser Spotted Woodpecker, Marsh and Willow Tit, though habitat fragmentation is a big one for all of them. As the declining species all use small holes, an arboreal mammalian predator that might preferentially attack larger hole-nesters could rebalance the issue. It's a reasonable supposition given that the species grew up together before mankind took to managing the environment.

As you say, Pine Marten is unlikely to be the whole answer, but it may well shift the balance in the fight.

John

 

[JWN Andrewes]

Encouraging, but I want to point that Grey Squirrels are not 'eradicated' but become rarer, and with '6% frequency of sightings' are still relatively common. It might make it possible to finish this species by culling, though.

But if they're knocked back sufficiently that Red Squirrels can recolonise and prosper doesn't the imperative to eradicate Greys evaporate? What reason do we currently have for exterminating Greys other than to conserve Reds? (I know Greys will predate birds' nests, although I don't know the extent or impact of this for any particular species, threatened or otherwise, but presumably they'd experience a similar benefit to the Reds if Pine Martens were keeping Grey numbers in check, unless the Martens just picked up where the Greys left off, although presumably with lower population density they might have less of an effect.)

James