Eradicating Grey Squirrels - the natural way. Monbiot article (1 Viewer)

[davercox]

What are the negative impacts of reintroducing Pine Martens back into England and Wales? We all know Wild Boar cause traffic fatalities, dig up gardens and football pitches, terrorise walkers, kill pigs owned by royalty etc, etc. Beavers cause floods, destroy crops and woodland, prevent salmon migrating etc, etc.

What are the zoophobic, anti-wildlife brigade saying about a possible marten introduction?

They're vermin, of course.

 

[Dry ice]

They are well known predators of hole-nesting birds, but all the species tolerate their presence.

Are martens not also predators of ground nesting birds, most of which are struggling in the British countryside?

 

[Sangahyando]

Red squirrels too are natural here and so different than Happy Jack. Always nattering and scolding anyone who passes by.

Different speciees (and genus) of "Red Squirrel", though.

Are martens not also predators of ground nesting birds, most of which are struggling in the British countryside?

Very likely, but those birds aren't struggling due to marten predation.

By the way, you know which predator controls martens? Lynx, that is.
Just sayin'...

 

[locustella]

Martens in the past had not driven any bird species to extinction. And they coexist in many parts of Europe in so called "relative harmony" ( ) ) with birds. But in those species depleted ecosystems. Who knows. But this is doubtful.

 

[Farnboro John]

But if they're knocked back sufficiently that Red Squirrels can recolonise and prosper doesn't the imperative to eradicate Greys evaporate? What reason do we currently have for exterminating Greys other than to conserve Reds? (I know Greys will predate birds' nests, although I don't know the extent or impact of this for any particular species, threatened or otherwise, but presumably they'd experience a similar benefit to the Reds if Pine Martens were keeping Grey numbers in check, unless the Martens just picked up where the Greys left off, although presumably with lower population density they might have less of an effect.)

James

The trouble is the pox. I'm not sure natural recolonisation of Red Squirrels is likely unless interactions with Greys are eliminated. Reason enough there to dispose of them, without considering any knock-on effects on other species.

I'm not in favour of letting up on Mink just because Otters are knocking them back a bit, either.

John

 

[King Edward]

The trouble is the pox. I'm not sure natural recolonisation of Red Squirrels is likely unless interactions with Greys are eliminated. Reason enough there to dispose of them, without considering any knock-on effects on other species.

I'm not in favour of letting up on Mink just because Otters are knocking them back a bit, either.

John

It probably depends on how low the Grey Squirrel population drops. Below a certain threshold there may not be enough of a disease reservoir to stop the Reds recolonising - some individuals would get infected and die, but not enough to wipe out the whole population. Sustained low-level, occasional contact between Reds & Greys would also seem the best conditions for the evolution of resistance in Reds.

The main problem with culling for eradication is the diminishing return for effort as the population drops. If you need to trap then kill, then for each squirrel caught you're going to have to spend an awful long time checking empty traps (or traps with Reds in them). With Mink, at least you can use the rafts to monitor presence/absence without the commitment of needing to check traps regularly.

 

[Amarillo]

Can't see this working aside from in areas such as the Forest of Dean or New Forest where a substantial population of pine martens could live, but theres nothing to lose and everything to gain by reintroducing pine martens. Even for the anti-wildlife brigade who protest against the reintroduction of birds of prey, wild boar and beavers, there isn't any issue against pine martens surely?

 

[Sangahyando]

Can't see this working aside from in areas such as the Forest of Dean or New Forest where a substantial population of pine martens could live, but theres nothing to lose and everything to gain by reintroducing pine martens. Even for the anti-wildlife brigade who protest against the reintroduction of birds of prey, wild boar and beavers, there isn't any issue against pine martens surely?

Pine Martens have fangs, ergo they are evil.



On the plus side, Pine Martens are also cute, so it's possible to win the general populace for their cause, if you manage to gain enough attention.

 

[chris butterworth]

As Pine Martin are ( if left to their own devices ) fairly catholic in their choice of habitat, any area with food and cover would be suitable. Beech Martin, although slightly larger and less reliant on trees, are an urban animal in parts of its range, as has been noted in previous posts. Japanese Martin is regular in sub-urban parks, provided there are mature trees. Pine Martin are attractive and, over time, can become reasonably habituated to humans so releases in some of the larger urban / sub-urban parks could be a way forward, with the added advantage the "I've got a big gun, and a little willy" brigade couldn't get at them.

 

[jurek]

I am always amazed how slow and complicated is even simplest nature restoration project in England.

If a fisherman wants to have native fish or a gamekeeper wants pheasants, they mostly just bring and release them. For reintroducing even small native animal or plant - it seems twice as complicated and ten times longer than cloning a woolly mammoth.

I see no objective reason why reintroduction of pine marten could not be a small, cheap project for a local nature group. A month-two of trapping 20 martens in Scotland, vet inspection, drive to England and release, and a season of low-cost monitoring by scats and camera traps.

 

[Sangahyando]

As Pine Martin are ( if left to their own devices ) fairly catholic in their choice of habitat, any area with food and cover would be suitable. Beech Martin, although slightly larger and less reliant on trees, are an urban animal in parts of its range, as has been noted in previous posts. Japanese Martin is regular in sub-urban parks, provided there are mature trees. Pine Martin are attractive and, over time, can become reasonably habituated to humans so releases in some of the larger urban / sub-urban parks could be a way forward, with the added advantage the "I've got a big gun, and a little willy" brigade couldn't get at them.

Are Beech Martens larger? I've always heard of the opposite being true. And the only (unfortunately dead) Pine Marten I've found so far seemed bigger than any Beech Marten I've seen.

 

[Mayo Corncrake]

An article from George Monbiot which if accurate would be a much more intelligent solution to reducing Grey Squirrel numbers than trapping, poisoning and shooting.

Any BF members noticed a difference in the studied area of Ireland?

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...-squirrels-without-firing-a-shot-pine-martens

Anytime I'm in that area Grey squirrels seem to have vanished.
Don't think the grey squirrel decline has conclusively been proven. There is a study ongoing in Tomnafinnoge woods in Wicklow on Grey Squirrels (tagged). The forest is rotten with Grey Squirrels but Pine Martin are starting to appear back in the forest. Hopefully the grey squirrel there will show a decline and the Red Squirrel can bounce back.

 

[Mayo Corncrake]

Can't see this working aside from in areas such as the Forest of Dean or New Forest where a substantial population of pine martens could live, but theres nothing to lose and everything to gain by reintroducing pine martens. Even for the anti-wildlife brigade who protest against the reintroduction of birds of prey, wild boar and beavers, there isn't any issue against pine martens surely?

Over here Gun clubs are increasingly giving out about expanding Pine Marten populations. They apparently clean out pheasant poults.

 

[Amarillo]

I see no objective reason why reintroduction of pine marten could not be a small, cheap project for a local nature group. A month-two of trapping 20 martens in Scotland, vet inspection, drive to England and release, and a season of low-cost monitoring by scats and camera traps.

Good point

since pine martens are not only native but also currently resident, presumably the kind of red tape that has plagued beaver reintroduction and continues to affect wild boar, eagle owls etc can be avoided?

 

[Farnboro John]

Good point

since pine martens are not only native but also currently resident, presumably the kind of red tape that has plagued beaver reintroduction and continues to affect wild boar, eagle owls etc can be avoided?

You are having a giraffe. With NCC split into provincial bodies, what could be easier than to insist that studies must be undertaken separately in each country to ensure all possible differing factors are accounted for? Witness the ludicrous way that Devon Wildlife Trust is being required to monitor Beavers on the River Otter (confusing isn't it?) when all the work necessary has already been done in Scotland. And France. And Belgium. And Germany.....

Its bureaucracy, obfuscation, delaying tactics and crass anti-wildlifism gone thermo-nuclear.

John

 

[Nutcracker]

Red squirrels too are natural here [USA] and so different than Happy Jack. Always nattering and scolding anyone who passes by.

Different species - Sciurus vulgaris in Europe, Tamiasciurus hudsonicus in N America :t:

 

[Jos Stratford]

Are Beech Martens larger? I've always heard of the opposite being true.

Beech (Stone) Marten is smaller.

Video of both HERE at my feeders last week.

 

[MJB]

Beech (Stone) Marten is smaller.

Video of both HERE at my feeders last week.

Stone (Rock) Martens in Slovakia often make their winter quarters in the roof spaces of old houses in mountain villages - they keep the rats and mice out!
MJB

 

[chris butterworth]

Are Beech Martens larger? I've always heard of the opposite being true. And the only (unfortunately dead) Pine Marten I've found so far seemed bigger than any Beech Marten I've seen.

On average Pine Martin have a longer head/body length but Beech Martin are heavier, with proportionally longer tails.

 

[Amarillo]

You are having a giraffe. With NCC split into provincial bodies, what could be easier than to insist that studies must be undertaken separately in each country to ensure all possible differing factors are accounted for? Witness the ludicrous way that Devon Wildlife Trust is being required to monitor Beavers on the River Otter (confusing isn't it?) when all the work necessary has already been done in Scotland. And France. And Belgium. And Germany.....

Its bureaucracy, obfuscation, delaying tactics and crass anti-wildlifism gone thermo-nuclear.

John

but much of the bureaucracy stems from beavers not being resident in the UK. The pine marten would be more comparable to the red kite, which was reintroduced without such long delays (I think).

I don't doubt that there will be red tape, but there should be less than with reintroducing a species that has died out eg beaver.