Evidence for the Survival of the Ivory-Billed Woodpecker (1 Viewer)

[timeshadowed]

Buck,

Can you tell me WHY many duck hunters have reported seeing IBWO's lately??

Oh, wait, I think that fangsheath just answered that question for you.

"I think it is fair to say that birders are generally quite scarce in the swamp under such conditions."
(See the quote below)

But if vocalization is as rare as it appears to be, one may have to endure a lot of nasty conditions to have a reasonable chance of hearing it. Added to this is the fact that water levels are often high in late winter and floodplain roads virtually impassable. I think it is fair to say that birders are generally quite scarce in the swamp under such conditions. Duck hunters, by contrast, often seek them out. Lo and behold, many ivory-bill reports have come from duck hunters.

TimeShadowed

 

[buck3m]

Can you tell me WHY many duck hunters have reported seeing IBWO's lately??

Probably for the same reason they've been reported in yards and at birdfeeders from Maine to California. The Ivory-bill has gotten huge press, Pileated Woodpeckers look very much like Ivory-bills, people WANT to see Ivory-bills, and people are often mistaken.

I guarantee that there would have been a big flurry of "Ivory-bill sightings" one way or another, whether or not they exist.

There's been a flurry of reports, but not a flurry of photographs.

 

[choupique1]

3/4 of the most reliable IBWO sightings are NOT by birders.......think about how we go through the woods..... quiet, slow and stealthy.. as for photos....

hard to hold a camera ready in those conditions.....



particularly.. when.. you could care less about getting a photo of a suposedly extinct bird......

and why attract.... that much attention to your area.........which is why most hunter's sightings are never made public.....

 

[Bonsaibirder]

Reliable??

Hi Choupique1,

What is your definition of a "reliable" IBWO sighting?

............ and why so many dots?!!

By the way, a good field birder should also be "quiet, slow and stealthy", however its interesting that on the 'IBWO updates' forum, birders are being advised to wear bright orange jackets!! So it sounds like birders have a choice - keep quiet and stealthy and have a chance of seeing something before you get shot, or make a noise, wear fluorescent jackets and have absolutely no chance of seeing anything, even an IBWO.

Saddinall

3/4 of the most reliable IBWO sightings are NOT by birders.......think about how we go through the woods..... quiet, slow and stealthy.. as for photos....

hard to hold a camera ready in those conditions.....

particularly.. when.. you could care less about getting a photo of a suposedly extinct bird......

and why attract.... that much attention to your area.........which is why most hunter's sightings are never made public.....

 

[choupique1]

i would only wear orange while traversing around waterfowling areas - at all times where deer hunters(gun) are present. while actually in the "zone" i would forego orange.

as for a reliable report - one which stokes the interest of the experts.

why so many dots..... dunno

 

[choupique1]

a good field birders may well should be stealthy.

I have yet to see or hear ANY that I would call stealthy.

For starters - lilly white faces, walking with the wind, noisy as all billy hell.

 

[Bonsaibirder]

stealth

Point taken - I don't often see birders with camouflage paint on their faces but some good birders are very quiet.

Cheers,

Saddinall

 

[choupique1]

tan skin, boonie hat.... glance up before looking up..

 

[jeepnut]

jeepnut

I know nothing of ivory billed woodpeckers.

I grew up and have lived in the mountains of western Montana for 50+ years – camping, photographing, hunting, fishing, hiking, back-packing, jeeping, collecting fire wood, etceteras.

I have seen in my life a couple dozen black bears, maybe 10 grizzlies, 2 mountain lions, 1 bobcat, 1 wolverine, 1 marten and never have I seen or met anyone who has ever found a skeleton or other remains of any of those quite common animals, just try to find the skull of a so-what bull elk or mountain goat, or even something as common as a doe mule deer.

How many ardent outdoorsman have ever seen a cougar, wolverine, bobcat or marten? -- answer, very few -- some animals are very secretive -- you have to spend a lot of time out in the great outdoors, and then you might gety lucky, and somebody else might get lucky on thier first outing!

None of you really want dead remains as proof of a presumably endangered animal's continued survival. Not having recent remains of a "specimen" is a frequent argument put forth by skeptics. How many skeptics are able to say that they have found remains, in the field, of anything less common than water foul or cattle?

respectively, jeepnut

 

[timeshadowed]

I have seen in my life a couple dozen black bears, maybe 10 grizzlies, 2 mountain lions, 1 bobcat, 1 wolverine, 1 marten and never have I seen or met anyone who has ever found a skeleton or other remains of any of those quite common animals, just try to find the skull of a so-what bull elk or mountain goat, or even something as common as a doe mule deer.

How many ardent outdoorsman have ever seen a cougar, wolverine, bobcat or marten? -- answer, very few -- some animals are very secretive -- you have to spend a lot of time out in the great outdoors, and then you might gety lucky, and somebody else might get lucky on thier first outing!

How many skeptics are able to say that they have found remains, in the field, of anything less common than water foul or cattle?. . . -How many skeptics are able to say that they have found remains, in the field, of anything less common than water foul or cattle?-

respectively, jeepnut

Good points there, jeepnut!!!


TimeShadowed

 

[curunir]

I know nothing of ivory billed woodpeckers.

I grew up and have lived in the mountains of western Montana for 50+ years – camping, photographing, hunting, fishing, hiking, back-packing, jeeping, collecting fire wood, etceteras.

I have seen in my life a couple dozen black bears, maybe 10 grizzlies, 2 mountain lions, 1 bobcat, 1 wolverine, 1 marten and never have I seen or met anyone who has ever found a skeleton or other remains of any of those quite common animals, just try to find the skull of a so-what bull elk or mountain goat, or even something as common as a doe mule deer.

How many ardent outdoorsman have ever seen a cougar, wolverine, bobcat or marten? -- answer, very few -- some animals are very secretive -- you have to spend a lot of time out in the great outdoors, and then you might gety lucky, and somebody else might get lucky on thier first outing!

None of you really want dead remains as proof of a presumably endangered animal's continued survival. Not having recent remains of a "specimen" is a frequent argument put forth by skeptics. How many skeptics are able to say that they have found remains, in the field, of anything less common than water foul or cattle?

respectively, jeepnut

hgr or buck wrote of having seen lots of bodies of all kinds of carcasses in his activities. Other than animals killed by hunting I've only seen deer and one mountain lion, all hit by cars. Of course it wasn't my job to go looking for dead animals. To be fair though, I have seen a lot of dead birds, nothing but common ones though.

 

[choupique1]

i spend a lot of time in the field...... a lot.. and in good places.....I have only seen 3 live bears in louisiana... despite their being between 3 and 5 hundred in this state....

we certainly don't have 3 to 5 hundred Ivory Billls(but we do have some) so you are not just going to stumble on them.....

 

[curunir]

i spend a lot of time in the field...... a lot.. and in good places.....I have only seen 3 live bears in louisiana... despite their being between 3 and 5 hundred in this state....

we certainly don't have 3 to 5 hundred Ivory Billls(but we do have some) so you are not just going to stumble on them.....

I researched and it was the buck's post that contained the dead animal comment. Could very well be the difference between Alaska and Louisiana. Alaska = icebox, Louisiana = petri dish.

 

[jeepnut]

to prove or disprove . . .

Good points there, jeepnut!!!


TimeShadowed

Perhaps, instead of butting heads with arguments, could we examine the empirical evidence to see what value there may be.

I tend to agree with the skeptics, not for what they put forth as not found, but for the valid questions they ask regarding they evidence that has been presented. It has been said that proving a negative is extremely difficult, that is not the skeptics’ problem. Like bigfoot, proof is the problem of the observer.

With respect for all, happy trails, jeepnut

 

[jeepnut]

I researched and it was the buck's post that contained the dead animal comment. Could very well be the difference between Alaska and Louisiana. Alaska = icebox, Louisiana = petri dish.

Montana=icebox

 

[Wompoo Dove]

Montana=icebox

I grew up combing the forests in New Brunswick Canada for birds and hence covered many many square miles of bird habitat both as a young observer and then later on as a wildlife research technnician. I actually encountered a good number of bird remains. Mostly just patches of feathers after a kill and not a lot else but enough to often identify the individuals that had expired. There were always at least a few woodpeckers among these carcasses.

Pileated woodpeckers were a common species (I could literally hear them from my parents doorstep) and I photographed them, found their nests and saw countless feeding activities. However, I never once found a carcass of this bird. All of this taking place in "icebox" New Brunswick. I had many colleagues, (primarily with Canadian Wildlife Service) who found none either that I am aware.


My point here is that if a common species practically in my backyard like pileated goes undiscovered when dead, then why would it be even a point worth examining that there are no ivory billed carcasses? I have found a lot of the debate here very thought provoking but find this point at best weak and perhaps even irrelevant. I would love to hear from others who have found pileated carcasses in the field. I doubt that I will hear from many.

By the way my hopes are that the ivorybill does indeed exist. The video is tantalizing but I only see a large woodpeckerish like bird flying from the tree. The sounds point to 100% ivorybill in my opinion though though. and I greatly respect Cornell and the firsthand observers. I would be very surprised that the men sighting the ivory bill that flew past them (as per the 60 min segment) saw a pileated woodpecker. While not infallible, I trust seasoned birders who are certain of what they saw. Having spent my livlihood as a wildlife tech in the field for 17 years I believe there is a level of competence that is present with experienced individuals such as these. Even a brief sighting that is clear can be accurate. Also, I find that experienced birders at this level are commonly self-policeing. There is no joy in sharing about a rare species if you have severe doubts that the brief look you had was a visual snapshot of a common species like pileated for example.

We can expend a lot of passion and fevervent energy here debating whether the bird exists based on hard evidence, but I strongly believe this is really a wait and see issue. With so many keen minds and eyes now tuned to the fact that ivorybills are probably still with us, it is only a matter of time before some substantial pictures are available or even concrete breeding evidence.

Don Kimball

 

[kmuizelaar]

Saw 60 minutes report yesterday on tv. As an european I know next tonothing about american birds, but the evidence shown on tv seemed very flimsy. The bird in the video from the boat with white wings visible could that not just as well have been a pileated woodpecker which according to my guide also has white inner wings which might show when flapping?

 

[kmuizelaar]

I agree with Don Kimball that the testimony of the2 seasoned birders of a close sighting would be more reliable, although not conclusive.

 

[fangsheath]

While many people focus on the appearance of the bird in the video, other features are far less ambiguous and more telling in my opinion. In particular, the wingbeat frequency is quite readily apparent and easily measurable. It is 8.7 beats/sec. This is a stunningly fast wingbeat for a large woodpecker, it would even be on the fast side for a smaller species like a flicker (which average 8.1 beats/sec). Tobalske's studies of woodpecker flight provide an average wingbeat frequency for pileateds of 5.2 beats/sec with a range of 3.3-7.5. If someone can provide a video of a pileated making 9 wingbeats at 8.7 beats/sec I would like to see it.

 

[dacol]

Just to complement Fangsheath post, the Cornell team was able to compare this wingbeat frequency obtained from the video with that recorded in 1935 by Allen et al. While the surviving images do not show an IBWO in flight long enough to measure the wingbeat frequency in the sound recordings one can clearly hear the sound made by the wings of the male IBWO as it leaves the nest. From the sonogram the wingbeat frequency can be measured and one gets, for the male IBWO in the Singer tract in 1935, 8.6 beats/s !

This is in the video of Fitzpatrick presentation to the AOU. I had the opportunity of seeing and hearing both Gallagher and Fitzpatrick in a talk at the Smithsonian in Washington, DC, on October 25. Fitzpatrick presented the video analysis as well as the sound analysis mentioned in this message.

Dalcio