Extra tricky Redpolls problem (1 Viewer)

[Jane Turner]

Every year, at this time of the year, I get a passage of Redpolls. They mostly fly over high, but when they come down they are extra confusing.

Much greyer, a little to a lot larger than the now happily breeding local Lessers, and with big butch voices. Most are very streaky, some are almost exilipes-likes in their lack of streaks. I'm not alone in seeing these weird beasts, or having trouble with them. They do seem to be able to catch them and photograph them on Bardsey though.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OhIKMpMJB...s/s1600/Redpoll+4,+Bardsey+1May11+(Large).JPG


To quote Richard Brown.....

Every spring we get quite a few Redpolls that make us want to look away and pretend we never saw them. In the hand, wing lengths, although towards the top end for Lesser Redpolls, still fall within the range of that species. But both in the hand, and here in the field, they just don't look like proper Lesser Redpolls. They are cold and lack any of the warm brown tones to the breast and flanks. So they're possibly diminutive Common Redpolls, but where from?

 

[Alan Tilmouth]

Iceland Jane, all sorts of funny goings on up there with Redpolls.

 

[Jane Turner]

Might well be.

It would be interesting to find out when they return to the breeding grounds. There were 50+ Redpolls in two flocks passing through today.

 

[Andy Hall]

The redpoll species is a pig's breakfast. Can you get any feathers for DNA analysis Jane?

 

[Alan Tilmouth]

Might well be.

It would be interesting to find out when they return to the breeding grounds. There were 50+ Redpolls in two flocks passing through today.

I think some are back in April and juveniles appearing in some instances by mid-May but perhaps there are distinct mini-populations in certain areas so maybe birds from the north of Iceland (or west?) winter in a different area and arrive later. I know research on other species has revealed groupings of this nature (e.g. Black-tailed Godwit).

 

[Jane Turner]

The redpoll species is a pig's breakfast. Can you get any feathers for DNA analysis Jane?

I'm no longer a ringer (lapsed 15 years).

 

[Jane Turner]

I think some are back in April and juveniles appearing in some instances by mid-May but perhaps there are distinct mini-populations in certain areas so maybe birds from the north of Iceland (or west?) winter in a different area and arrive later. I know research on other species has revealed groupings of this nature (e.g. Black-tailed Godwit).

They start at about the time of White Wagtail passage and got through to Mid May - which would suggest that they may well be going a long way NW.

 

[Jane Turner]

34 more of the bl*****dy things passed through Red Rocks this morning. One flock dropped in broiefly and I managed some rudimentary photos. Greycheeks, but rather buff washed on the breast. White wing bars and white mantle lines, heaviliy streaked rumps. Looked big - close to Goldficnh which was alongside

the first set are from today at Red Rocks

the second are the May birds from Bardsey that are too small to be certain Commons in the hand

the 3rd set are Redpolls from NW uk in May, as a reminder of what they should look like

and the last set are Respolls from Iceland

 

[Jane Turner]

Some more of the Red Rocks ones.

Squint and they look like exilipes! Look at how long the wings are!

 

[Jane Turner]

and just to make it more confusing than ever.... I've been through all the old RR ringing data 1974-86 pulling out the wing lengths of sexed Redpolls. I've lumped into two groups - those caught in May, and those caught the rest of the year (which is June-Sept). There were 1-3 local breeding pairs in those years. Obviously there may be some passage birds in early June and some breeding birds caught in May.

Using Svensson as a reference, a fair number of those birds would have been classified as Common on wing lengthif caught now - though none were in possession of sufficiently noticeable pale rumps to draw attention to themselves. The female at 80mm would have been labelled as rostrata! Using BWP which has bigger data sets, there are fewer "certain non-cabarets" but there still are a good few. Nearly all of the out of spec birds were caught in a single flock on May 15th 1977.

Still don't know what they are or where they come from - but one thing is sure, the migrant birds are bigger then the breeders (which reassuringly fit nicely within the specs for cabaret!)

 

[Jane Turner]

More tricky Redpolls in the NW UK in May

http://webirdnorthwales.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/if-you-hate-redpollsplease-look-away.html

http://webirdnorthwales.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/subalp-and-more-redpolls.html

http://webirdnorthwales.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/mmmmmmore-redpolls-why-do-we-do-this-to.html

 

[Jane Turner]

I've been looking at the wing pointedness, as opposed to the wing length of Redpolls. I've been using the tips of the shortest and longest tertials, and the distance between the tip of the longest tertial and the longest primary as markers. The ratio between the two measures is shown in the whisker plots.

The troublesome Redpolls (in Yellow) include 3 birds that were too short in the wing length to be Common, but actually have very long primaries in proportion to the overall wing-length. I need more examples of photos of breeding Hebridean Redpolls - (only 3 so far) so any examples greatly appreciated.

Likewise it would be great to have photos of Redpolls in Greenland, as opposed to assumed Greenland Redpolls in the UK.

 

[Edward]

Iceland Jane, all sorts of funny goings on up there with Redpolls.

Might well be.

It would be interesting to find out when they return to the breeding grounds. There were 50+ Redpolls in two flocks passing through today.

Redpolls in Iceland tend to be mainly resident and are common here throughout the winter, and the first juveniles are seen here in early to mid May. However, there does seem to be at least some movement of of Hornemann's Arctic Redpoll through Iceland in late March to early May, which are observed regularly in small numbers, and perhaps too of Common Redpolls. We know where the hornemanni are going but where are they coming from?
Lots of Redpolls from Iceland here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/omarrun/sets/72157626134501415/

Likewise it would be great to have photos of Redpolls in Greenland, as opposed to assumed Greenland Redpolls in the UK.

The Common Redpolls I saw in the Ammassalik area in East Greenland three years ago were big, heavily streaked birds which we see quite regularly in winter in Iceland too. Unfortunately I didn't see any redpolls in Ittoqqortoormiit earlier this month, despite this being in the range of both hornemanni and rostrata.
Netfugl has the following rostrata from Greenland
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=39065
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=22333

Aarhus birder has some redpoll pics from Greenland (some stunning hornemanni)
http://aarhusbirder.blogspot.com/search/label/Greenland
although his possible rostrata does not look like the birds I have seen on the east coast at all.

E

 

[Jane Turner]

Cheers Edward... That will keep me busy for a bit longer!

 

[Jane Turner]

Aarhus birder has some redpoll pics from Greenland (some stunning hornemanni)
http://aarhusbirder.blogspot.com/search/label/Greenland
although his possible rostrata does not look like the birds I have seen on the east coast at all.

E

Its relatively short-winged too.

And

http://www.flickr.com/photos/omarrun...7626134501415/

is where I got my Iceland's from

 

[Jane Turner]

and now with Greenlands (also too small a data set to read too much into yet like Hebs).... and N.European cabarets

So the top line is that the winginess of the mystery birds could indicate a N.E European cabaret source or a NW Redpoll population - though the NW uk bias of the records might suggest the latter.

 

[Aarhusbirder]

Regarding the unidentified redpoll (possible ssp. Rostrata) found here http://aarhusbirder.blogspot.com/2012/04/greenland-redpoll-ssp-rostrata.html on Aarhusbirder, I'm not at all sure what to make of this bird. Usually Arctic Redpolls seen in Denmark (exilipes) are not supposed to have more than a single black stripe of a few fine stripes in the undertail coverts. The majority of birds (hornemani) seen this winter in Western Greenland had clean white undertail coverts. The Greenlandic Redpolls (ssp Rostrata) that I have seen in Kangerslussuaq/Illulissat in the summer time have all been much darker. I'll see if I can find the time to upload some pictures to the blog.

Regarding redpolls on the east coast; I have only seen two birds in two three week trips (late spring + summer) there.

I will be going to Northwestern Greenland (Thule Area) this summer/fall so maybe I can get some pictures of birds from that area.

 

[Edward]

Regarding the unidentified redpoll (possible ssp. Rostrata) found here http://aarhusbirder.blogspot.com/2012/04/greenland-redpoll-ssp-rostrata.html on Aarhusbirder, I'm not at all sure what to make of this bird. Usually Arctic Redpolls seen in Denmark (exilipes) are not supposed to have more than a single black stripe of a few fine stripes in the undertail coverts. The majority of birds (hornemani) seen this winter in Western Greenland had clean white undertail coverts. The Greenlandic Redpolls (ssp Rostrata) that I have seen in Kangerslussuaq/Illulissat in the summer time have all been much darker. I'll see if I can find the time to upload some pictures to the blog.

Regarding redpolls on the east coast; I have only seen two birds in two three week trips (late spring + summer) there.

I will be going to Northwestern Greenland (Thule Area) this summer/fall so maybe I can get some pictures of birds from that area.

Welcome to Birdforum, Aarhusbirder. It would be great to see some more pictures of rostrata and hornemanni from Greenland on your blog. I saw plenty of rostrata on Ammassalik island in July 2009 and I think I heard redpoll sp. twice in Ittoqqortoormiit two weeks ago but I could never find them. I think hornemanni must occur further into Scoresby Sund. I'm very envious that you are going to Qaanaaq this summer, a dream destination for me. It's actually cheaper to fly to New Zealand than to Qaanaaq from Iceland though!

 

[Jane Turner]

Fewer Redpolls there though!

Welcome indeed Aarhusbirder. I eagerly await some more Greenland birds!

Iceland birds are looking very strange -a strong suggestion bimodal distribution - long-winged* birds and rather short winged birds!

This being a measure of primary length as a % of wing length rather than an absolute measure. The more Iceland birds look at, the more bimodal the distribution gets being both rounder winged and pointier winged than flammea in northern Scandinavia!


(21 Icelandic birds in the figures)

 

[Aarhusbirder]

You can see some more greenlandic birds here http://aarhusbirder.blogspot.com/2012/05/rostratas-from-greenland.html

All very dark birds.

Rasmus