Fogging oculars...just NL's or all new production Swaros? (2 Viewers)

[PatR]

James I am not quite sure how to take your post as I for one would never question anyones experience with a particular brand or series from that brand.

I totally get it, as I alluded, that different people have different experiences and that within that experience a particular model, in this case the NL's, fog up more than others. Absolutely understand and there have been many posts since their introduction mentioning fogging, glare and of course the armour issue none of which have, as yet, affected me.

But all my bino's fog depending on the ambient temperature and my own body/breath temperature and my two NL's, the 10x42 and the 14x52's, are no better or no worse than the thin leather covered Trinovid Retro's. I would have expected them, along with the Habicht's and the Nikon EL 8x30's to have fogged more than their rubber armoured siblings.

If my post in any way offended you or cast doubt on your own experience with the NL's (or others) then I do apologise as that was not my intention. I would never for a moment label you with a derogatory slur or doubt your word.

 

[AuntySocial]

OK, that's three people now, time to spin theories. Are you all right-handed?

I’m a righty and hold them equally with both index fingers on the wheel. While the lhs tends to fog first they both go eventually so it’s just an observation rather than an issue. I’m the wonky element I think. Anyway, I’ve given them a clean and see if this occasional and minor gripe (which I can get round by slightly retracting the eyecups) is controlled better.

 

[Bentley03]

If my post in any way offended you or cast doubt on your own experience with the NL's (or others) then I do apologise as that was not my intention. I would never for a moment label you with a derogatory slur or doubt your word.

Oh!!!!! 😲

No way, Pat, we're good, VERY good, always have been, always will be, and your contributions on here are are one of the reasons I enjoy this forum so much and which encourage me to keep coming back. We've shared many a smile and a giggle together, as you well know!

I've made a big claim here, one which is, for me, unequivocally FACT, but which for the majority of forum members will be met with shock, surprise, and in many cases, disbelief. With relatively little 'solid' support for my claim, that post is simply a reflection of how I'm feeling about how my findings have been received on here. I'm very certain I'm right, and stand by everything I've said, but I'm losing the will to continue defending myself, regarding my claim.

Ultimately I contribute on here for fun, but I feel I'm in the midst of something very controversial, of my own making, and I'm not having fun defending my claim, because it's such an uphill struggle.

Make sense?

 

[PatR]

Make sense?

Absolutely and you have no need to defend your post. It is what you have experienced and is, for you, fact.

If other members take exception to your claim then it is their own (I was going to say shortsightedness but .....!) view and having spent the best part of my life defending the rights of others I accept that some have different views and experiences which I may, or may not, concur with.

Its not controversial to point out the prevelance of fogging in your Pure's as far as I am concerned James, nor should it be. You have made an observation and a claim based on your experience before and after your eye surgery and it is a welcome report on a range of bino's that are marmite to some, and which have so many advantages/disadvantages over their peers for a diverse range of experienced and not so experienced enthusiasts.

Ignore the buggers ( I do for a selected few of the 'usual suspects', as Captain Louis Renault so memorably uttered in Casablanca Airport after Rick had shot the dastardly Major Strasser) and continue to enlighten those of us who enjoy not only your posts but your enormous (and selfless) contribution to the coffers of the purveyors of fine optical instruments.

 

[Trinovid]

I've made a big claim here, one which is, for me, unequivocally FACT, but which for the majority of forum members will be met with shock, surprise, and in many cases, disbelief.

I've been following just because I'm interested in the cause. If you say that you're having an issue and anyone else says otherwise then it just shows that they don't know what they're talking about, because you're there, and they aren't. The worthwhile posts are the ones which attempt to understand and decipher what's going on, the rest aren't worth reading.

Main things that seem possibilities are the hand placement, eye cup design and proximity to your eyes. I for one am hoping that you'll end up posting what solutions ended up working for you.

 

[Canip]

If you say that you're having an issue and anyone else says otherwise then it just shows that they don't know what they're talking about….

Well, that is one way to see it (and we are having a friendly debate here, not a fight, right?).
I wasn’t debating Bentley03‘s experience of his NL fogging up. I was just wondering whether that might have less to do with the NL (or any particular bino brand) and more with the way how binos are handled.

 

[Trinovid]

I wasn’t debating Bentley03‘s experience of his NL fogging up. I was just wondering whether that might have less to do with the NL (or any particular bino brand) and more wirh the way how binos are handled.

Just reading through the part of my post you quoted, and then what you wrote, I don't see any conflict. You seem to believe him and be trying to help, which is great.

If you'd read it again I think you see that the closing part of my post seems to be aimed in the same direction as yours. I think we're on the same side and hoping for a solution that allows him to thoroughly enjoy his NL's again.

 

[NatureLover123]

[…] I think we're on the same side and hoping for a solution that allows him to thoroughly enjoy his NL's again.

Yes, just use an SF 🤣 joking. But I am curious why Swarowski doesn’t use the Swaroclean anymore? Makes no sense to me to remove something useful. If the tech was not durable enough then just invent something new instead of providing no solution.

 

[james holdsworth]

I use several Zeiss models in variably cold conditions all the time and none fog, except when I breathe on the lenses, then only for seconds.

Take them into a warmer car or house and they of course fog, until they have warmed somewhat.

 

[Maljunulo]

It seems to me that if there is a "thermal bridge" and heat is flowing to the binocular, the eye lens would (eventually) be warmed above the condensing temperature, and the fogging would no longer happen.

What do I not understand here?

 

[tenex]

Any of them can fog up, so you learn to hold them back away a bit and let the temps equalize.

That's exactly what I meant to suggest. Under such conditions one could even dial the eyecups down slightly in order not to press them so firmly into the eye sockets. It's possible to rest them only against the brow at the top, if necessary. Perhaps they were even a bit too deep (relative to ER) for some users to begin with, by a millimeter or two. Questioning whether this is some intrinsic flaw in NLs does not involve doubting any user's experience, only trying to explain it.

 

[GrampaTom]

A hunting story.... sorta. Non hunters can divert their imaginations for a sec, tho hopefully it wont offend.. Many years ago, I was in a forested area in central Michigan. It was a cold 20 degree, January day. I was hunkered down behind a pile of brush through which I could survey a game trail 20 yards or so out and the forest beyond. The cold was seeping into my bones and I was getting stiffer and more uncomfortable by the moment. My eyeglasses were clear enough as I turned my head slowly from left to right and back, looking for any sort of movement, anything out of the ordinary from what was there seconds ago. The idea that I was going to be able to pull the bow string back seemed less and less plausible. I looked left, nothing. Then right again nothing...expected. With all my senses slowed down do to the cold, as I turned back to the left my brain said "Whoa, what was that black spec?" Whipping back to the right, connected to that black spec was a brown furry nose and beyond were parts of the body of a Whitetail. In a flash my eyeglasses were totally fogged, couldn't see a blessed thing. My heart was pounding, breath surging like I'd just sprinted the 20 yards.

Now Im not saying this explains the thing. My experience though with optics (scopes, binos) fogging, I don't think has much to do with mechanical contact, (the thermal bridge we're talking about maybe?), hands, bino body. The fogging Bently03 describes, the fogging Ive experienced happens very fast. There isn't time for fingers to heat the bino tubes and travel to the oculars. The fogging is moisture carried in the air around the lens, that gets released like the condensation on the outside of a gin and tonic filled glass on a hot humid day. Warmer moist air hits ice cold glass, water droplets form. My face is giving off heat somewhere around 98.6 degrees. The area around my eyes is a bit of a pocket of this warmed air. My warmed, moist breath is drifting out and up adding to the mini weather surrounding the eye/ocular space. The glass lens mostly suspended in space, more or less insulated from direct contact with face or hands, at its current different cooler temperature hits the slightly warmer air and we have a gin and tonic glass. Sorta kinda?

Add some chemistry to the glass though and what then might happen? Zeiss says this,

The LotuTec® protective coating - ZEISS Hunting​

ZEISS
https://blogs.zeiss.com › sports-optics › lotutec-protective-...

It ensures that water beads off without residue immediately and that dirt and fingerprints do not adhere to the surface. This allows fast, easy cleaning."

Maybe?

 

[StuartReeves]

Just to highlight this previous thread on the topic.

 

[GrampaTom]

Just to highlight this previous thread on the topic.

Thanks for this link,
see #7,
"My apologies I wasn't aware of previous discussions in this forum - I'll root through the 'back catalogue'. OK I understand now that it's the absence of a particular coating that is the issue. I wonder whether this also explains too why I felt my lenses got dirty more quickly than I'd normally expect [I'm a reluctant lens cleaner and could go days or even weeks without cleaning... but not the NLs...].

Thanks

Mike"

 

[BirderNL]

Never had any "fogging" problems with my NL pure (they did fog up in extreme humid and cold conditions when they came from outside to a warm car, but so did the EL's of my birding companion, and his eyeglasses...)
Using contact lenses.

 

[tenex]

Just to highlight this previous thread on the topic.

Sometimes history doesn't just rhyme, but repeats itself. Topics to avoid in the future: glare, fogging... (feel free to add)

Interesting that in that thread, I noted a rare instance of fogging with BN 32 on a cold lakeshore, when SLC 42 (with Swaroclean) did not. But re-analyzing that, the 32 has smaller eyecups, and shorter ER, and it was my wife using them, with contact lenses. And the bins were acclimated by then, so presumably the problem was having some exertion, hiking through snow. So many stories, so many variables... but surely it's a basic matter of moisture and air circulation.

 

[james holdsworth]

Some people just give off more heat from their faces in cold temps too…

 

[dorubird]

Some eyepieces eyecups are more thermo conductive than others, even than different binoculars model of the same brand. Depending on how much metal the eyecups tubes contain from one model to another that make contact with cold lenses...

 

[Patudo]

@bentley - Interesting you found the Habicht less susceptible - one would assume coatings should be similar, and the shorter eye relief of the Habicht should mean your eyeball is closer to the glass. That's something I bring up when someone suggests the Habicht for an all seasons binocular - you need to make sure the oculars won't mist up when it's cold. I stop using my old porros once it gets too cold in the mornings for that reason.

I'd expect the other Swaro models to have the same coatings but ELs at least with their longer eye relief will have the glass further from the eyeball, so ought to be less prone to misting.

Maybe the best solution (if you wish to use the NLs for that particular purpose) is to wear glasses with them. And if you wish to observe without glasses, fortunately, it doesn't sound as though you are short of options...

 

[Bentley03]

@bentley - Interesting you found the Habicht less susceptible - one would assume coatings should be similar, and the shorter eye relief of the Habicht should mean your eyeball is closer to the glass. That's something I bring up when someone suggests the Habicht for an all seasons binocular - you need to make sure the oculars won't mist up when it's cold. I stop using my old porros once it gets too cold in the mornings for that reason.

I'd expect the other Swaro models to have the same coatings but ELs at least with their longer eye relief will have the glass further from the eyeball, so ought to be less prone to misting.

Maybe the best solution (if you wish to use the NLs for that particular purpose) is to wear glasses with them. And if you wish to observe without glasses, fortunately, it doesn't sound as though you are short of options...

The Habicht behaved as expected, the NL's did not, which is why the Habicht was included on that list.

Haha...your 'best solution' for me is exactly what I concluded myself would the best solution for me, thus my reference somewhere on this thread to one of my solutions being on order from my optician. 😉