Found Kestrel with broken wing (1 Viewer)

[Robert / Seattle]

I would question this. Agreed there is educational value of captive birds being used to encourage interest, but I would have thought it better to use a bird captive bred and without fear of constant and close human contact. I would imagine being carted around schools, admired by over-enthusiastic children, etc, could be a constant source of trauma to a previously wild bird. ...

Well think again:

http://redfalcon.gaia.com/blog/2008/3/freedom_the_rescued_bald_eagle

 

[Jos Stratford]

Well think again:

Thought again, still seen nothing to chance my view - the link you provide was to a young bird that had fallen from a nest, hardly a comparison to an injured adult bird being used. I would not classify an injured nestling as the same as a bird that had been free-flying and used to a life in the wild.

Though there might be examples of injured adults that seem to not be stressed by being used as 'ambassadors' and paraded in schools, I still would question why a captive-bred bird would not be more suitable (as the chances of stressing the thing out has to be far greater to a wild bird then captive one)

 

[Robert / Seattle]

Thought again, still seen nothing to chance my view - the link you provide was to a young bird that had fallen from a nest, hardly a comparison to an injured adult bird being used. I would not classify an injured nestling as the same as a bird that had been free-flying and used to a life in the wild.

Though there might be examples of injured adults that seem to not be stressed by being used as 'ambassadors' and paraded in schools, I still would question why a captive-bred bird would not be more suitable (as the chances of stressing the thing out has to be far greater to a wild bird then captive one)

My take, Jos, is that wild creatures are infinitely more adaptable than we give them credit for. It's the nature of most living things to be so. If "our" falcon can be treated to a point of living a comfortable, if captive, life - then I for one would have little doubt that the end result here would be much preferred to a "baseball bat to the head" (talk about "stress").

With proper care, companionship, and an educational message delivered to appreciative audiences in the process, I can't see much that would support an unnecessary and brutal alternative.

 

[Jos Stratford]

If "our" falcon can be treated to a point of living a comfortable, if captive, life - then I for one would have little doubt that the end result here would be much preferred to a baseball bat to the head.

I won't argue against that*, but if I had brought it that comfortable life, I wouldn't then seek to make it less comfortable by carting it round schools and educational institutes.


* note, somewhere in the depths of this thread, I stated that in this example, I would have attempted to save the kestrel.

 

[deborah4]

What still concerns me and hasn't been fully addressed regarding the initial advice given for the Kestrel in question is this:

DIAGNOSTIC ABILITY

Becca was advised that the bird should be euthanised immediately rather than wait for a rehab/vet to call back so (without wanting to dredge up old mud!) on the basis of a photo - another scenario could have been how Becca described what she saw but was unable to post a pic - The immediate response to the photo was to euthanise on the basis the carpal joint was fractured/severely damaged - As KN points out below, this is likely to be a permenant and non-recoverable injury:

Hold out the damaged wing and feel along the long bones, and slowly manipulate the wing. Borken bones will have a gravelly feel and be obvious breaks in the bones. If they are not present, but the bird cannot lift the wing up to rest in the normal position, it is the carpal joint (common). Also feel along the wing bones for a compound fracture, where bone has come through the skin. There will be matted feathers and a bit of blood. In anything other than a simple break of the long bones AWAY FROM THE JOINT (which fuse together and cripple it), euthanase it.

However: this diagnosis came into question at least 48 hours later after the strong advice the bird should be euthanised had been given:

Originally Posted by timwootton

Just looking at the original photograph of the kestrel's injury and I am of the opinion that the damaged wing is probably intact, and that the damage is likely to be muscular or tendon/ligament damage. It's also possible that there's been a severe dislocation or perhaps a break in the humerus (nice to introduce a bit more humerus to this discussion, I think). As I've tried to show in the first drawing, the wing is hyperflexed and twisted to some degree, but it's not massively out of alignment (in fact, anyone who's observed geese distracting with a broken-wing display would have noticed them holding their wing in a similar position – that's not to say this bird isn't very severely damaged – I'm sure it is).​

yes, I do agree that it's not the carpals (as I first suggested, I noticed this the other day but got bogged down in other issues ) but higher up. However, it isn't a dislocation of the humerus imo as the tertials are still in alignment, whereas most of the secondaries are not, so it has to be a twist on the radius/ulna, which must mean a break (tertials mostly emanate form the radius/ulna section http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20417.../image155c.jpg), not the humerus. It's possible there's a compound fracture though, and will definately be ligament damage.

If Becca had followed the advice to euthanise the Kestrel rather than wait for a call back from a qualified Vet/licensed Rehabber, the Kestrel would have been dead and it would have been too late, if it transpires that the later 're-diagnose' had proved to be more accurate. Perhaps KN was right and it will transpire when Becca gets some feedback, that it was in fact a Carpal Joint break but what if he wasn't and it was serious ligament injury or a compound fracture 'AWAY FROM THE JOINT'?

Whether or not it would have recovered or whether it should spend life in rehab becomes a mute point, it would have been dead perhaps unnecessarily.

(hence my concerns re: advising to euthanise a bird one hasn't examined and a desire at least to be educated in how to diagnose for myself properly, (in the absence of 'expert' help) an injury to help me ensure euthanasia is the last resort treatment vis a vis a particular injury - and then, only then, the question of a life in capitivity becomes relevant and desirable/not desireable based on one's personal point of view.)​

 

[dantheman]

I think this is another example of the human/wildlife interaction which is why this particular avenue is not a clear cut 'black and white' one.

Different species, different rescue centres, different individual bird 'personalities, different injuries . . .

Generalisations can't be made, yet somehow, concensus has to be reached??

(Edit: referring to posts 138 -144 btw)

 

[Apodemus]

yet somehow, concensus has to be reached??

Oh, I doubt that very much!

 

[Robert / Seattle]

I won't argue against that*, but if I had brought it that comfortable life, I wouldn't then seek to make it less comfortable by carting it round schools and educational institutes. ..

Nor would I if it proved stressful to the bird. Rather, I'd give it a few cautious, tentative runs and take it from there. But either way, if the bird was fully recovered in health, if not flight ability, it's quality of life would be assured under the auspices of a caring human being or institution.

This is almost a weekly occurrence here in the Pacific Northwest as reported on the local nightly news. Each and every injured raptor brought to qualified authorities here gets treated and subsequently placed in the most appropriate post-care environment. -- be it wildlife park, educational "ambassadorship", or re-release to the environment. It's the right thing to do, isn't it?

 

[danehower]

Oh, I doubt that very much!

Aww shucks ! Does this mean that BF's " Dummies guide to euthanizing injured birds" will not go to print ?

 

[timwootton]

Aww shucks ! Does this mean that BF's " Dummies guide to euthanizing injured birds" will not go to print ?

B*gger - I was just working on the layouts, too!

 

[danehower]

B*gger - I was just working on the layouts, too!

3

 

[Apodemus]

Aww shucks ! Does this mean that BF's " Dummies guide to euthanizing injured birds" will not go to print ?

Would this book have an extendable baton built into the spine, and a handy foldaway bag in the back?

 

[danehower]

Would this book have an extendable baton built into the spine, and a handy foldaway bag in the back?

hahahaha !! :clap:3

 

[pygmy falcon]

A couple of things I would like to point out. First is on the basis of legality with this particular bird. Since Becca left messages with rehab centers, they are aware that she had this bird already. For Becca's sake, self euthanasia was not an option. If she told the rehab center that the bird died on it's own, she would still have to submit the body to USFWS, or the state DNR because it is property of the state. She would be legally bound to turn the body in, if asked for it. If she turned it in beaten to a pulp, she would be under investigation, and possibly charged with a misdemeanor, or worse. Who knows?

As far as the education setting goes, I worked with 30+ birds. They all came from different places, whether accidental imprints, or injuries due to nature or humans. The ones that always got people's attention were the ones that were injured by humans. It brought the message home to people that 'this bird can't fly because of a human.' The ones that were old falconer's birds, etc, that had nothing physically wrong with them, didn't seem to spark the attention as much.
Most of these birds, like I said, did really well in captivity. It goes beyond just the fact that they were 'able to eat.' Some formed pair bonds with one another, some formed pair bonds with the docents, some laid eggs. We had owls that would fall asleep when held. The point being, that they didn't lead terrible lives in captivity. They started to do natural behaviors again. When taken out to do programs, they weren't stressed out. they would look around, sit with a relaxed stance, and their breathing was slow and calm.
Besides, a lot of injured birds do well in captive breeding programs for population increase programs......

 

[timwootton]

A couple of things I would like to point out. First is on the basis of legality with this particular bird. Since Becca left messages with rehab centers, they are aware that she had this bird already. For Becca's sake, self euthanasia was not an option. If she told the rehab center that the bird died on it's own, she would still have to submit the body to USFWS, or the state DNR because it is property of the state. She would be legally bound to turn the body in, if asked for it. If she turned it in beaten to a pulp, she would be under investigation, and possibly charged with a misdemeanor, or worse. Who knows?

Well all I can say about that scenario is I'm very glad I don't live in 'The land of the Free', where 'the State' OWNS wildlife. And, without protracting this point any further than necessary - regarding stress of captive 'wild' birds, I'm afraid you just DON'T know how much/little stress they're under. Each species reacts to stress in different ways. Of course birds can be rehabilitated to do 'wonderful things', but if you cannot giove them back the freedom they were hatched to, then, to my way of thinking, you're doing zilch for the individual except prolonging its 'life'.
And as we're dealing anthropomorphistic emotions, If you read or see the play 'Who's Life is it Anyway', that puts my position pretty much.

 

[KnockerNorton]

At the risk of being shouted at for being 'girly' can I ask - if I was at home and needed to euthanase, would drowning be humane? Not sure how long it would take though - a minute or so?? I know I would want to do the right thing but I couldn't hit a living creature, inside a bag or out.

(Post 119 very helpful)

No, it's quite inhumane, for the bird and the person who has to hold it underwater until it stops kicking. Not pleasant. Pigeon fanciers often use(d?) this mehtod, I understand.

 

[lulie]

I have to agree with Tim. My experience with rehab left me seriously doubting the real benefits to conservation. We had over 100 raptors in the center, some work we did was excellent, the rehabilitating and releaseing of poisoned vultures for instance was fantastic. But even using birds for breeding has a very limited use. We had an african crowned eagle who would lay eggs which we would replace with second, non hatched eggs from the wild, she would then rear them. Fantastic? not really, almost all the chicks were then passed on to other centers as there were all most no available terrotories for these birds to be released into. Learned this the hard way when feeling all puffed up about ourselves and with grand ceremony released a fully fledged crowned eagle into the greater Kruger park, only to watch it be killed by the resident pair.
So nothing is quite as simple as just helping these birds, there are many many consequences to our actions.
I do agree that education has its part to play but for many who attend these educational sessions it is merely a spectacle; I watched many tourist on educational talks move away from the educator talking animatedly about the plight of the vultures cause they had seen the cheetah across the way in another enclosure and were more interested in this cause they might get to have their photo taken with it.
I do believe that some injured and rehabbed birds have a part to play in education but just wish it wasn't so flippently used as a reason to save every common buzzard or kestrels life. How ever happy they apear, it is a dimminished life for them if they are not free, and having 1 bird of a species is enough to educate with, you don't need 20 of the same bird.
So I still have some faith in rehabbing and I don't believe that any rehabber is being cruel as such and will be looking after the birds wonderfully, its not a dig at them, its just the ethics of it that I doubt.
Perhaps also things are very different here in south africa to where you are!

 

[KnockerNorton]

KN; The reason I asked about OBS wasn't for blood pressure but for temperature - which would help determine presence of infection would it not?

you don't need temp - if it has an gut infection the faeces will be very loose and the vent area will be wet and matted. Respiratory infection will give similar symptoms at the other end. Infections such as pox etc cause warts, and bacterial skin infections cause weels and boils on the skin. Most often, people will find a giull with botulinum or salmonella, or a finch with trichomoniasis or salmonella. There's not too much you can do, without identifying the exact bug (with needs a lab), except give warmth, food and water and see if it recovers on its own. Gulls often do ime, finches usually don't. A vet or Stocker's books can give advice on antibiotics for eg botulinum. Infections from injuries will need a broad-spectrum antibiotic only available from vets, but birds are quite good at shaking them off on their own. Washing the affected area with salty water/antiseptic works to prevent such things. But if the bird has a puncture wound from a wound, then it;s likely to be from a compound fracture or gunshot, which means an infections is the least of its problems. Puncture wounds from cats, even minor, are often fatal due to septicaemia. These things can happen very quickly, over a few hours, due to fast metabolism in birds, so by the time you've realised it will often be too late.

ALSO, you didn't seem to give any advice about how to assess if a bird has internal injury .... what about ribcage injury, damage to internal ear etc? ... things a vet would probably pick up fairly quickly.

Internal structural injuries are extremely hard to diagnose without x-rays. A broken furculum (wishbone), for example, is nigh-on impossible to diagnose as the wings work fine but it wont be able to fly (tape up both wings and treat as broken wing if you suspect it). Ribcage injuries wouldn't stop a bird flying and would heal spontaneously. Ditto sternum, unless it was severe, but such injuries will be comparatively rare (due to protection fromm the muscle mass) unless it's been shot. In which case it will have an entry wound and possibly organ damage and multiple fractures, so what you (or a vet) can do is limited.

'Internal ear' injuries are often more brain-type injuries from a collision - its hard to tell exactly what tey are, and there's not a lot you can do either way, but it's easy to diagnose cos the bird will hold it's head at a funny angle, even upside down, or have one eye closed all the time. It may also peck at food but miss. All you (or a vet) can do is give it fluids by hand for a few days and see if it fully recovers over several days (a week tops). If not, goodnight - there is no coming back.

 

[KnockerNorton]

BTW: KN

What about diagnosing DISLOCATION of the carpal joint? Presumably this could also result in a dragging wing/out of shape?

The carpal joint is a complex one, and dislocation would also result in substantial damage to the muscles, nerves and ligaments. I've never seen a dislocation on the carpals, but it would be difficult to tell from a fracture anyway, and probably be as 'fatal'.

The carpal is the most important and delicate joint in a bird, as it has to be perfect to enable flight. Think of the fine tuning a kestrel needs to stay on a spot in a breeze -that is all done from the carpal. Any stiffness or lack of movement, and it wont be able to fly properly, which is as good as not being able to fly at all. A flapping bird's wingtip goes in a figure of 8 movement, rotating on the carpal. If this is impaired in anyway, then it wont work.

 

[KnockerNorton]

Partially guilty of not keeping up on this thread.



In that posting, the 'preferred' part was tongue-in-cheek, referring back to a previous YL Gull thread. Maybe should have put a smiley . . .

Although I think it an argument which has 'some' credence.

But probably not if

a) the animal has been caught already, taken into custody.
b) its a bird like a Kestrel with an injured wing.
etc

Examples where it could be appropriate;

a) a common pest which will provide food for someone else in the food chain.
b) mortally injured reptiles etc - don't know how to despatch them.
c) mortally injured creatures which are about to be food for another creature.
d) creatures which are apparently going to 'slip away' anyway. (eg baby mice as mentioned, ill/unconscious creatures etc)

Maybe I'm just particularly cruel and heartless!

On the other hand, happy to be wrong on some (all) of these, as I am in an obvious minority, and no vegan buddhists/animal spirit believers etc have come wading in with their arguments why something should not be despatched.

No, it has no credence whatsoever. It is a cruel, inhumane and cowardly thing to do. Akin to stepping over a pedestrian who's been knocked down by a car.