• BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE!

    You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Gamekeepers' take on Capercaiilie/Pine Marten ecology (1 Viewer)

Robin Edwards

Well-known member
Didn't Capercaillie once become extinct in Scotland due to them being shot for sport and then reintroduced to enable people to shoot some more? And the Pine Marten will have had centuries of persectuion too. Here's a quote from the Shooting Sportsmen in 2008 and why I wouldn't trust the motives of Gamekeepers in Scotland.

"But what if you could visit an exotic land outside of our own season and shoot a turkey-sized grouse with all of the traditional elements that draw us to upland hunting? Last August I accepted an invitation from Hakan Gyllbring of the Rural Economy and Agriculture Society of Norrbotten County in Swedish Lapland to shoot capercaillie."


When species become rare, natural predation has greater impact. Slavonian Grebes and Otter might be another example.

Let's be clear though, Gamekeepers are paid to control species to maximise the sport on the land they work. They won't be happy if there's nothing for them to control though.

I know of a number of fishermen who given the choice would have both Otter and Osprey culled.
 
Last edited:

Kits

Picture Picker
Didn't Capercaillie once become extinct in Scotland due to them being shot for sport and then reintroduced to enable people to shoot some more?

The article says

The capercaillie, a huge, woodland grouse, became extinct in Scotland around 1785 but was reintroduced, using birds from Sweden, just over 50 years later.

but there appears to be no mention for the reason for the extinction.
 

NAB

Neil Blood - UK 437 BOU (Swainson's Thrush)
I know of a number of fishermen who given the choice would have both Otter and Osprey culled.

I'm a fisherman (and birder) and personally I dont know any fisherman who'd like to have Ospreys culled. Infact seeing one makes their day!
 

crabplover

Well-known member
I'm a fisherman (and birder) and personally I dont know any fisherman who'd like to have Ospreys culled. Infact seeing one makes their day!

Maybe not Ospreys, but Cormorant and Great Creasted Grebe are on their hit list, not to mention Seals too !
 

captaincarot

Well-known member
I'm a fisherman (and birder) and personally I dont know any fisherman who'd like to have Ospreys culled. Infact seeing one makes their day!

i was a fisherman for 35 years, it was the calls for, osprey, otters and cormorants that made me decide to put down my rods. because i know of anglers who do call for all 3 to be killed. some of the ********s in charge of the barbel society for a start and others involved in farming rainbow trout for release into ressers. futher who do you think actually shot that osprey last year, the first year one from sweeden that was shot in norfolk.

i will see angling banned before anyone legally culls one otter or osprey, in the name of angling
 

saluki

Well-known member
Here's a quote from the Shooting Sportsmen in 2008 and why I wouldn't trust the motives of Gamekeepers in Scotland.

"But what if you could visit an exotic land outside of our own season and shoot a turkey-sized grouse with all of the traditional elements that draw us to upland hunting? Last August I accepted an invitation from Hakan Gyllbring of the Rural Economy and Agriculture Society of Norrbotten County in Swedish Lapland to shoot capercaillie."

Not quite sure why this quote would colour your views on Scottish gamekeepers? It was written by an American, appeared in a US publication and concerned shooting capers in Lapland . . . or am I missing something?

Cheers
Jonathan
 

Robin Edwards

Well-known member
Not quite sure why this quote would colour your views on Scottish gamekeepers? It was written by an American, appeared in a US publication and concerned shooting capers in Lapland . . . or am I missing something?

Cheers
Jonathan

Jonathan,

I doesn't colour my views on Scottish gamekeepers and I know that many gamekeepers are passionate about their environment just as I realise that this is a US report. What it highlights though is a desire of people to kill Capercaiilie for fun - the irony being that Scottish Gamekeepers are worried that theirs are being killed by Pine Marten they might like to now control.
 

Twite

Well-known member
futher who do you think actually shot that osprey last year, the first year one from sweeden that was shot in norfolk.

Someone with a gun. Not necessarily an angler. But if you have more information go to the police or RSPB and let them take action.

Uninformed speculation = Load of Bollocks.
 

speyghillie

Well-known member
Hi All,
I live in the Scottish Higlands and just wanted to add a couple of points, o and i am a very keen fisherman,
I have worked on Highland estates and Highland rivers since leaving school and have never heard a fisherman say anything bad about Ospreys, in fact when they see them which is quite often, they always remark what wonderful birds they really are, most stop fishing to watch them, most anglers fish because they love being ourdoors in nature, catching a fish on Highland rivers is a bonus.
One of the big estates in the area which employes several gamekeepers and has lots of grouse moors, has also designated areas for Capercaiilie and actively involves the RSPB and SNH, as most Highlands estates do.
While i am not defending Gamekeepers, and i went to school with a few, any of them caught killing Ospreys or Capercaiilie would be out of a job and out of their tied house in a minute.
Rothiemurchus estate has a grouse moor and Gamekeepers, a trout fishery and yet has done more for the Osprey than anyone else in the UK, the estate owner is even head of the Osprey charity.
Please do not think all Gamekeepers, Highland estate owners and fishermen want to kill Ospreys, Capercaiilie or Otters, it could not be further from the truth.
One last example, i have three trout fisheries that i stock, i am just finished building an Osprey hide for people to come and enjoy as i do, watching Ospey dive and catch a fish, or if you want to watch wild otters hunting.... i have a hide built for that to, and yes i am a fishery owner.
I really could give another 40 examples of Gamekeepers, Landowners and fisherman in my area doing nothing but good things for all of nature.
Thanks Gordon.
 

NAB

Neil Blood - UK 437 BOU (Swainson's Thrush)
Someone with a gun. Not necessarily an angler. But if you have more information go to the police or RSPB and let them take action.

Uninformed speculation = Load of Bollocks.

Very well said sir ;-)
 

bombycilla

Well-known member
I'm a fisherman (and birder) and personally I dont know any fisherman who'd like to have Ospreys culled. Infact seeing one makes their day!

Then you are lucky ! I am also a very keen river trout fly fisherman and the twaddle I have to listen to about how goosanders, cormorants, herons, seals should be culled really gets me down. Heard some negative stuff about otters too which for the life of me I just can't understand. Unfortunately, there are some really uneducated and narrow minded people in the 'sporting' fraternity.

Caper should be allowed to extinct. Millions of pounds are spent trying to preserve a species that is now ill equipped to survive in Scotland. Pine Marten has increased its range massively hence keepers want any excuse to control them.
 

Bird_Bill

Well-known member
Flirted the flea for over 40 years. Catch and release, barbless only for last 30. Hear the same dribble over otters from commercial fisherman here. We have fishfarms here that lobbied succesfully for our government to keep an eye on our national bird(Bald eagles) so none of their stock is lost,ammortized by taxpayers. Same organization whose members ignorned govt.recommendations that holding ponds be located above historical high water marks. Water came up, asiatic carp entered mississippi river drainage. Now we're losing most of that ecosystem and taxpayers here are forced to clean up someone else's mess...again.

Realize state of Michigan had its own indigenous grayling.Fisherman or otters didnt extirpate then elimnate that animal.Commercial logging operations that completely denuded its enviroment,caused waterways to silt and heat beyond sustainability was what did it.
 
Last edited:

NAB

Neil Blood - UK 437 BOU (Swainson's Thrush)
If we are moving on to Cormorants, like it or not, it is a hard fact that if left unchecked a large group of Cormorants will return to the same lake or stretch if river and systematically clean it out. This doesn't just cause conflict with anglers it changes the entire echo system of the waterway in question. Why do you think Natural England issue licences to shoot as an aid to scaring or direct culling in some cases?

Obviously I'm flogging a dead horse with this argument on 'bird forum'.

And regarding Otters, yes I agree there's a lot of rubbish spouted in the Angling press.
 

Andrew Rowlands

Well-known member
NAB,

Any animal will return to a free food source, whether the food is animal or vegetable - if the food source is artificially overstocked compared to surrounding areas, it should come as no surprise that it will eventually attract a larger number and greater range of feeders. It's the artificial food stocking that's changing the Eco-system - not the animals/insects that learn to take advantage of it.
 

NAB

Neil Blood - UK 437 BOU (Swainson's Thrush)
Andrew,

In some respects I completely agree with you in that I personally have no time for overstocked commercial coarse fisheries or trout reservoirs; however from first-hand experience I have seen the damage that Cormorants can do to a natural river course or balanced fishery (within E.A stocking guidelines), and this includes a SSSI where Natural England stipulated what the natural fish stock levels should be; however the Cormorants completely wiped it out. Natural England commissioned a fish survey of the mere and this showed the mere to have an aging Bream population (large fish with no new fish coming through) and a head of tiny perch, which can spawn from a young age. In short distinct expected species and year classes were completely missing.

Regards,

Neil
 

Robin Edwards

Well-known member
Someone with a gun. Not necessarily an angler. But if you have more information go to the police or RSPB and let them take action.

Uninformed speculation = Load of Bollocks.


I wouldn't post any information here that would compromise any known investigations Twite but needless to say I know what I know and it's not mere speculation. Let me say that I know a man in his sixties that lives in mid Bedfordshire who is proud of his belief that all predator species should be controlled to protect fish stocks and boasts of his past actions. Bringing a convinction through police however is a totally different matter as I'm sure you realise. I am an occassional fisherman too and most fishermen I know love their environment as I do.

Defending nature is important and I for one won't be in denial of the underlying scale of harm that goes on. Given the situation, I will continue to work with RSPB and Police where appropriate.
 

Andrew Rowlands

Well-known member
"natural river course" NAB? Really - in your dreams or a previous existence?

Some river courses may still be natural, their ecosystems most certainly aren't.

Anyway, gone way O/T here.
 

MJB

Well-known member
Hi All,
I live in the Scottish Higlands and just wanted to add a couple of points, o and i am a very keen fisherman,
I have worked on Highland estates and Highland rivers since leaving school and have never heard a fisherman say anything bad about Ospreys, in fact when they see them which is quite often, they always remark what wonderful birds they really are, most stop fishing to watch them, most anglers fish because they love being ourdoors in nature, catching a fish on Highland rivers is a bonus.
One of the big estates in the area which employes several gamekeepers and has lots of grouse moors, has also designated areas for Capercaiilie and actively involves the RSPB and SNH, as most Highlands estates do.
While i am not defending Gamekeepers, and i went to school with a few, any of them caught killing Ospreys or Capercaiilie would be out of a job and out of their tied house in a minute.
Rothiemurchus estate has a grouse moor and Gamekeepers, a trout fishery and yet has done more for the Osprey than anyone else in the UK, the estate owner is even head of the Osprey charity.
Please do not think all Gamekeepers, Highland estate owners and fishermen want to kill Ospreys, Capercaiilie or Otters, it could not be further from the truth.
One last example, i have three trout fisheries that i stock, i am just finished building an Osprey hide for people to come and enjoy as i do, watching Ospey dive and catch a fish, or if you want to watch wild otters hunting.... i have a hide built for that to, and yes i am a fishery owner.
I really could give another 40 examples of Gamekeepers, Landowners and fisherman in my area doing nothing but good things for all of nature.
Thanks Gordon.

Gordon,
Good post - the individuals you refer to deserve good publicity and support. Any chance you might suggest to some of these people that they debate the issue of Capercaillie vs Pine Martens with the Scottish Gamekeepers Association?
MJBo:)
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top