Greece-Vagrant Pipit- 3/10/2010 (1 Viewer)

[Dimitris]

Hey folks,

An acquaintance of mine took these images on said date. It doesn't look like Tawny and so far it is believed to be a Richard's Pipit. However, the apparently dainty structure and rather heavily patterned back have made us think of other rarer possibilities.

These are the only 2 images of the bird and they are posted with the photographers permission.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Cheers and thanks.

D.

 

[Jan-Paul Charteris]

Vaguely remember reading that hindclaw length or curveture can seperate Blyth's from Richards? Can't remember exactly what the difference is though or whether it's a good feature

 

[NIKOSS]

Pipit?

Both pipit pictures where taken on 03/10/2010 at Omalos plateau, Chania, Crete, Greece by Samaritakis Nikos (me...)
Thanks in advance for any help with ID...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/samaritakis/
http://www.facebook.com/winged.cretans
http://500px.com/NIKOSS

 

[lou salomon]

http://www.google.de/imgres?hl=de&c...w=216&start=0&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:76 this one shows a similar richard's pipit (shortish bill, pointed bill, shorter neck etc. than usual richardii) - given away by its newly moulted triangular centered 2nd gen. median coverts (see comments, peter adriaens).

but in the crete pipit most things to me look much better for godlewskii:
- short hindclaw!
- stouter overall structure
- shortish bill, but culmen pretty curved downwards
- rel. evenly streaked mantle (of what we see; a feature mentioned in van duivendijk's bible)

35 pics of blyth's here: http://www.google.de/imgres?hl=de&c...180&start=0&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:13,s:0,i:113

well, i'm not experienced with this species pair, it was just a trial. blyth's for me on "first" view.

 

[Jacana]

Can't add anything to the ID, though I agree that it looks too 'dainty' for Richard's Pipit, but it's amazing how different the bills look on these two photos

 

[Dimitris]

Thanks folks.

So no definitive conclusions can be made from these images. That's interesting .

D.

 

[lou salomon]

i'd wait for somebody who know's these beasts well!

 

[smiths]

I agree that these two images suggest Blyth's Pipit rather than Richard's, though the white belly looks a bit problematic to me.
It would be good to see more photographs of this bird, especially some showing details of the outer tail feathers and some of the other side of the bird (to check if some median coverts have been moulted there). Also, did anyone hear this bird call?

Without further information, I doubt that we can say anything conclusive here - unless someone is feeling particularly confident today?

 

[phil baber]

I initially saw Blyth's qualities in these photos. But on closer examination I noted:

-supercilium extending far behind eye
-mantle "tramlines" not distinct
-median coverts. At least two show an attenuated pointed tip, and perhaps a third.
-thickness of bill. I'd expect a Blyth's bill to be thinner and daintier than this...

These pro-Richard's features are convincing me that it is a Richard's. And I'd like to say a 1st Winter.

(Watching 2 young Ravens yesterday, I was struck by how adult they looked. But the shortness of their beaks gave them away. I wonder, could a 1st Winter Richard's in early October still have bill-length to grow out?)

 

[lou salomon]

phil,

all the things you mention can be refuted, imo:

1. supercillium behind eye: this was among the things that struck me first and made me worry. then i found several pics of blyth's with strong supers on OBC images, like these:

http://orientalbirdimages.org/images/data/bpipit99f_filtered.jpg

http://orientalbirdimages.org/images/data/bpipit99b.jpg

2. tramlines are rather distinct (both pics). don't know how much weight this has though.

3. median coverts: all median coverts show an attenuated tip since it is a 1cy (i think, no moult contrast). both juvenile richard's and blyth's have attenuated centered MCs.

4. bill looks thick in the 2nd pic while it doesn't in the first.
and e.g. this bird doesn't look weak billed and is a blyth's: http://orientalbirdimages.org/images/data/sultanpuranthusgodlewskii5.jpg

.....:smoke::smoke::smoke:

 

[Brian J Small]

IMHO the exposure is exaggerating the pattern of the median coverts - if you tone down the highlights, they look less prominently white-tipped (see attached). I, too think the bill is too thick for a Blyth's Pipit, but as Peter (Smiths) says maybe we shouldn't say, but without other evidence I think it sensible to go with the more likely option rather than shoe-horn a rarer species in.

Brian S

 

[lou salomon]

what about the short hindclaw? to me this is the feature that gives the strongest weight towards godlewskii. nevertheless i'm not saying it is one.
can we exclude a 2cy+ bird? if this is an older ind., MC pattern certainly would strongly indicate richardii.

 

[NIKOSS]

A hard call i guess..
Perhaps one should concetrate on the features that exclude the one or the other...
Thanks anyway...

 

[Brian J Small]

what about the short hindclaw? to me this is the feature that gives the strongest weight towards godlewskii. nevertheless i'm not saying it is one.

Lou

I don't necessarily see a short hindclaw. Again a sub-optimal photo, in which the slight softness is hiding the exact length; if I sharpen the second image the hindclaw appear long and straight, the legs look long and strong.

Brian S

 

[tittletattler]

Two Blyth's Pipits for comparison. I'm assuming both were accepted as Blyth's:

http://www.fairislebirdobs.co.uk/Sightings/2007/Mark Breaks/07blythspipit4fairisle.jpg

http://www.surfbirds.com/Rarities/bestbird2007/20071024024153.jpg

Note the Fair Isle bird shows a very short hind claw.

Cheers, Andy.

 

[phil baber]

I'm a big fan of calling it as a Richard's. Re: previous post.

ps Grow that chunky bill Little Richard ('s)

 

[lou salomon]

the bird in this link (from andy) has a strong super and a strong bill... http://www.surfbirds.com/Rarities/bestbird2007/20071024024153.jpg

 

[Helsinki Birder]

Lou

I don't necessarily see a short hindclaw. Again a sub-optimal photo, in which the slight softness is hiding the exact length; if I sharpen the second image the hindclaw appear long and straight, the legs look long and strong.

Brian S

I would agree with Brian on this. The softness and intensity of lighting is hiding the true length of the hindclaw imo.

It is hard to judge. But I have attached two images (merely rough estimates of where I think the hindclaw tips lie. The 2nd image I have drastically altered the contrast and brightness to try and assess this)

I stress estimate. But if you look at the darkened 2nd image of the pipits feet, it does seem as if near claw-curvature continues on a significant distance.

Richards for me.

Owen