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Green Listing 2023 - Joint Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter l_raty
- Start date
l_raty
laurent raty
The 'red list' somehow arose from discrepancies among European countries in the treatment of exotic species.
I'm afraid that "naturalised" species (e.g. Canada or Egyptian Goose, Pheasant, Ring-necked Parakeet, etc.) are not normally regarded as being part of the avifauna of the country I live in. The usual way for me would be not to include any such a species on any of my lists at all.
There is, in any case, no way that I could make any such species "count" in my list on the database I use here to record my sightings.
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If we're going to use red for species which aren't countable in the country they were seen in (so cat D&E in the UK, but also cat C in some other European countries) then logically we should upgrade Canada Goose from red to black if it gets seen in the UK (which it has been, by me) where it's countable.
There's a decision to be made as to whether we allow cat C birds everywhere on the basis that they're allowed in a lot of places, which is what the annual 1 January joint list does, or whether we follow the rules that apply in the country where a bird was seen. Which in turn would mean that our long-distance cyclists could potentially tick a cat C bird by travelling to a country where it's tickable, which makes my head hurt but is sort-of logical.
Personally, whichever approach we take to cat C birds, I'd prefer to have people putting cat E birds on their own lists but not adding them to the global list. But if that's not the majority view then I'll go with the flow and stick Black Swan on the UK list. In red.
One thing to watch in the US is there will be occasional species which are split or lumped differently locally to how they appear on the IOC list. But that's easy enough to sort out as & when it arises.
There's a decision to be made as to whether we allow cat C birds everywhere on the basis that they're allowed in a lot of places, which is what the annual 1 January joint list does, or whether we follow the rules that apply in the country where a bird was seen. Which in turn would mean that our long-distance cyclists could potentially tick a cat C bird by travelling to a country where it's tickable, which makes my head hurt but is sort-of logical.
Personally, whichever approach we take to cat C birds, I'd prefer to have people putting cat E birds on their own lists but not adding them to the global list. But if that's not the majority view then I'll go with the flow and stick Black Swan on the UK list. In red.
One thing to watch in the US is there will be occasional species which are split or lumped differently locally to how they appear on the IOC list. But that's easy enough to sort out as & when it arises.
jasperpatch
Amy, Brit in Quebec.
Hmm, I added another this week (Finally caught up with a Brown Creeper, one that has been around all year for sure), have just added it to the World list too, but wasn't sure whether to insert it above the red ones?The world list is already done (in alphabetical order for each day).
Thanks for adding the last lot!
Still very quiet here, though the next couple of weeks should see the first of our spring arrivals depending on when the spring thaw hits. For now I am mostly kept entertained by one of the local Barred Owls, which is spending even more time watching our bird feeders than I do.
Attachments
The red species are (currently) those that are in category C or lower, and--from what I understand--they always lag behind categories A and B. If I had something new to add, I'd copy the whole block of red to the row below and add the record in black above.
dantheman
Bah humbug
Agree the whole thing is meant to be fun/enjoyable. ;-)
An element of friendly competition if people want, but as much or more so to motivate individuals to do more green birding and take pleasure from seeing how others are doing ...
The individual lists (eg with your own name) are for however you want to list, but when it gets to multi-user it does make some sense to know what the playing field is ... ?
A compromise, which I would probably do, would be to add a new tab after the continents (Europe, Asia etc) called 'Exotics' or similar, and stick the red list in there. I'd be tempted to add any escapes I see too - they are generally woefully under-recorded, in the UK at least (Edit: If I actually come across any). It does complicate it having different categories in the main list imo, but not the end of the world*
(I hadn't realised the Cat C situation was different in other European countries tbh)
*(Although could be said that they are, literally ... or at least at the end of the world list ... ;-)
(EDIT: The whole point of the 'Combined World List' was to produce a fun/motivational/interesting total of countable (ie tickable) bird species seen jointly, initially)
An element of friendly competition if people want, but as much or more so to motivate individuals to do more green birding and take pleasure from seeing how others are doing ...
The individual lists (eg with your own name) are for however you want to list, but when it gets to multi-user it does make some sense to know what the playing field is ... ?
A compromise, which I would probably do, would be to add a new tab after the continents (Europe, Asia etc) called 'Exotics' or similar, and stick the red list in there. I'd be tempted to add any escapes I see too - they are generally woefully under-recorded, in the UK at least (Edit: If I actually come across any). It does complicate it having different categories in the main list imo, but not the end of the world*
(I hadn't realised the Cat C situation was different in other European countries tbh)
*(Although could be said that they are, literally ... or at least at the end of the world list ... ;-)
(EDIT: The whole point of the 'Combined World List' was to produce a fun/motivational/interesting total of countable (ie tickable) bird species seen jointly, initially)
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When we do the collective 1 January list, we work on the basis that since cat C birds are countable in a lot of countries, we'll count them everywhere. So if it's from an established self-sustaining population it can go on the list even if it wouldn't go on your patch list due to local rules. That's not perfect; it creates some anomalies such as Monk Parakeet in the UK (not countable because the powers that be refuse to admit that it's self-sustaining) whereas in a country that doesn't allow cat C someone would just look at the facts (multiple generations, population stable) and tick it. But it does make life easier when compiling a world list if we're all applying more or less the same rules.
Xenospiza
Distracted
Grey skies and northwesterly wind in March are the best conditions for Curlew over my local patch and today was no exception.
I then cycled to the river Ruhr to go and see a Dipper. It's quite a widespread bird in the hilly parts of Northrhine-Westphalia, but I only saw it twice in the state before. I saw it as soon as I stopped my bike, so that was easy!
This was the first time I cycled to the Ruhr after 12 years in the Ruhr Area, but it's almost 40 km away. Especially getting through Oberhausen where you have to navigate four-lane streets without cycle lanes is not much fun. I also saw a ""bicycle highway" in Mühlheim, which was pretty much the other extreme. I only used it to cross the Ruhr and had to carry my bike up and down stairs to get onto it...
I then cycled to the river Ruhr to go and see a Dipper. It's quite a widespread bird in the hilly parts of Northrhine-Westphalia, but I only saw it twice in the state before. I saw it as soon as I stopped my bike, so that was easy!
This was the first time I cycled to the Ruhr after 12 years in the Ruhr Area, but it's almost 40 km away. Especially getting through Oberhausen where you have to navigate four-lane streets without cycle lanes is not much fun. I also saw a ""bicycle highway" in Mühlheim, which was pretty much the other extreme. I only used it to cross the Ruhr and had to carry my bike up and down stairs to get onto it...
The UK list now has both of its category C species in black. While I was tidying it up some time ago, I put them in red, mimicking the layout of the European and world lists, without giving it a second thought. Not sure about the Black Swan, so I left it as is (I never changed individual members' lists). It's a shame this solution hadn't occured to me earlier.
l_raty
laurent raty
Ultimately, people count what they want to count -- British birders generally do count Cat C birds, indeed.
Last year I didn't include any Cat C (or, obviously, Cat E) species I had seen in what I listed. To my eye, having Cat C birds grouped at the end of the list has the advantage that one can then easily choose to include them, or not, in what he perceives to be someone's total. I.e., anyone is free to stop counting before, or after them.
Black Swan has bred in the wild in Britain, but is not in Cat C on the British List.
(I'm not fully clear about the current status (C or E) of at least two species in my own country. The website of the Belgian Rare Bird Committee currently only lists 7 Cat C species (Canada and Egyptian Goose, Pheasant, Feral Pigeon, Ringed, Monk and Alexandrine Parakeet); but Mandarin and Ruddy Duck (originally assumed to come from the British population) used to be treated as C too in the past, and I'm not really sure there really was an official decision to alter this status. Things like Black Swan, Bar-headed Goose, Ruddy Shelduck, Wood Duck, Muscovy Duck, breed or have bred in the wild too.)
l_raty
laurent raty
I got the bike back on 17 Feb, fortunately.
18 Feb: an afternoon tour N of Brussels (Brussels-Mechelen-Wintam-Brussels). Looked for Penduline Tits near Mechelen, but without success. I initially hoped to go farther NW and search for the Ring-necked Duck, but time did not allow this. Added: Common Snipe. (Cycled this day: 90 km.)
19 Feb: round trip, passing through the local forest, to my wife's parent's place. Added: Crested Tit. (Cycled this day: 30 km.)
25 Feb: I first went N (a bit N of Mechelen), visiting a reservoir that had Red-necked and Slavonian Grebes, then a site that had 3 Glossy Ibises. Then SE, towards a site where a (wannabe) Pine Bunting and a Little Bunting had been found. I had a flat tire on this way, though, and I reached this site fairly late -- I saw the Pine Bunting only (and not that well: quite distant, in declining light). (This is a bird that was present a few km from this spot in early Jan too. No yellow whatsoever is present in its plumage, but the bird has more white / less chestnut in its head pattern than would be expected in an (adult) male Pine -- a large part of the eyebrow is dirty white, with chestnut colour limited to the area immediately behind the eye, and the central throat is white up too the chin. There are pics of this bird -- not by me -- here, if anyone is interested.) Added: Red-necked and Slavonian Grebes, Glossy Ibis, Tree Sparrow, Yellowhammer, and the Pine Bunting. (Cycled this day: 95 km.)
27 Feb: returned to the bunting site and spent a good part of the day there. Although the Little Bunting had been photographed a bit before 8 a.m., it was not to be seen again on this day. Got somewhat better views of the Pine Bunting in the end of the day, though. Nothing new. (Cycled this day: 40 km.)
1-5 Mar: moved towards E Belgium (Logbiermé/Wanne, municipality of Trois-Ponts, province of Liège), were I was joined by my wife. We stayed in Logbiermé, wandering around on foot. New birds included Crane, Great Grey Shrike, Red Kite, Coal Tit, Stonechat, Crossbill, Nutcracker, Willow Tit, Eurasian Treecreeper, Lesser Redpoll, and (last but not least
) Tengmalm's Owl. (Cycled: on 1 Mar (outwards journey): 170 km; on 5 Mar (way back): 170 km. Walked locally on 2-4 Mar: about 55 km in total.)(Cycled this year: 2325 km. Birds species: 148.)
Xenospiza
Distracted
I get tired just from reading, haha!
My winter list looks a bit bigger than last year's, mostly thanks to some cooperative geese.
However, there was a suspicious lack of rare grebes (Black-necked, Slavonian), divers (Arctic*, Red-throated, Great Northern) and ducks (Red-crested Pochard, Velvet Scoter) along the Rhine this winter which will cause an obvious dent if they don't show up in December.
* I twitched one last year which stayed till early January.
My winter list looks a bit bigger than last year's, mostly thanks to some cooperative geese.
However, there was a suspicious lack of rare grebes (Black-necked, Slavonian), divers (Arctic*, Red-throated, Great Northern) and ducks (Red-crested Pochard, Velvet Scoter) along the Rhine this winter which will cause an obvious dent if they don't show up in December.
* I twitched one last year which stayed till early January.
Thanks for that. Judging by the pictures in this paper: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...Emberiza-citrinella-a-and-Pine_fig3_285288567, I went through eBird's photos of Yellowhammer for Poland and reported 10 pictures and counting as potential hybrids (with ML328437391 Yellowhammer Macaulay Library being the clearest such example), and I'll see what happens. Currently, there are no records of such hybrids in Central and Eastern Europe, which seems strange given this map from the same source: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...opatric-part-of-breeding-range_fig4_285288567. I hope to soon try and search for these hybrids myself as well.
l_raty
laurent raty
I find it a difficult call.
Recent genetic analyses suggest that plumage is a very poor indicator of mixed vs. pure ancestry in this pair. (50% of the pure-looking Pine Bunting in the overlap zone -- which is half of the range of the species -- would actually have a mixed ancestry.)
(I'm not fully sure our bird is an adult. I guess its plumage would be more 'acceptable' on a 2cy.)
l_raty
laurent raty
My list is so far is certainly much longer than last year's, when a certain virus kept me at home for more than three out of the first nine weeks of the year...
I've read the ending of that paper and it distinguishes between (phenotypic) leucocephalos and (phenotypic) 'pure' leucocephalos, and then the two types of hybrids, so not all hybrids are regarded as hybrids, which is not genetically accurate, but somewhat makes sense. On the other hand, given that slightly impure Pine Buntings are not pure enough to be counted as Pine Buntings, I hope that--at least--slightly impure Yellowhammers are fit for the 'hybrid' label (that is, I hope there's no grey area between pure Yellowhammers and decided Yellowhammer x Pine Bunting hybrids).
