Grey Squirrels and Rats (2 Viewers)

[ChrisKten]

My garden has been full of Birds and Squirrels for years... the 60+ Feral Pigeons hoover-up any food that falls from the feeders, so there's no mess on the ground. Although I do have Mice in the garden that compete with the Corvids/Wood Pigeons/Squirrels for the monkey nuts, I've never seen evidence of Rats. This morning I saw a Brown Rat on my shed roof.

Now I would be a bit concerned about this, as if the neighbours see one they'll all be on the phone to the local council, but I'm relying on the Squirrels to either kill or chase off the Rat. I thought it best to confirm what I know (and what I think that I know) with what is actually true - so could someone with first-hand experience confirm the following:

• Grey Squirrels will not tolerate Rats in their territory, and will likely kill any that they come across (which would explain why this is the first Rat that I've seen in the garden, as there has always been Squirrels).
• Rats don't travel more than about 100ft from the nest to look for food (it's a myth that they roam further)
• A Rat trespassing into another Rat's territory will be killed (or kill).

Thanks

 

[Sangahyando]

I haven't heard about any of these, so can't say if they're true. Haven't seen rats and squirrels interact at all, so far (and I'm pretty sure our native red ones would leave a full-grown rat alone). Point 3 sounds a bit extreme - shouldn't they have more nuanced defensive behaviours, like other species?

 

[ClarkWGriswold]

I can certainly confirm the first isn't true and have never heard of the other two.

Rich

 

[etudiant]

The Gray Squirrels here in NYC Central Park coexist very happily with an abundant rat population. The former live in the trees, the latter live in holes, the ground is neutral territory which both forage on.

So unless your squirrels behave a lot differently, it is probably unwarranted to expect them to keep rats out. I'd also wonder about their ability to dispatch a rat, there is no material size difference and the dentition is comparable, so it would be a tossup as to who would win.

 

[Farnboro John]

Sounds like urban myths to me. If you rephrased them they might sound more likely:

- In any confrontation at a food source, Grey Squirrels might well win;

- in the litter-strewn, hugely wasteful human urban environment, Brown Rats rarely need to travel far to find food;

- Rats are colonial and may well have large numbers living in close proximity to each other but dominance hierarchies develop and small/weak individuals are occasionally killed by larger, stronger ones.(I've also seen rats catch and kill small rodents e.g. Wood Mice at bait sites.) Big old rats are frequently extensively battle-scarred, this being most obvious on face and tail.

John

 

[ChrisKten]

Thanks for the replies, I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens.

All three statements I quoted were confirmed by either Pest Controller forums and/or radio tracking data or studies. My only personal/anecdotal evidence is the lack of Rats in my garden over the years, and from researching the home range (25ft - 100ft seems to be often quoted in studies). I should mention that I'm basing all this on an urban environment (Housing Estate in London)... I'd assume different results for farmland etc)

I'm hoping you are all wrong... if not, I'll have to rely on the 6+ Feral Cats visiting my garden at night

 

[ChrisKten]

Sounds like urban myths to me. If you rephrased them they might sound more likely:

- In any confrontation at a food source, Grey Squirrels might well win;

- in the litter-strewn, hugely wasteful human urban environment, Brown Rats rarely need to travel far to find food;

- Rats are colonial and may well have large numbers living in close proximity to each other but dominance hierarchies develop and small/weak individuals are occasionally killed by larger, stronger ones.(I've also seen rats catch and kill small rodents e.g. Wood Mice at bait sites.) Big old rats are frequently extensively battle-scarred, this being most obvious on face and tail.

John

I'll settle for that, John... just need to cross my fingers and hope for the best

 

[Farnboro John]

I'll settle for that, John... just need to cross my fingers and hope for the best

I'm not sure that's a good idea.... one of our neighbours overfed the birds and ended up with masses of food on the ground. The brook rats found it and moved into the entire row of back gardens (including ours) and it took three years to eliminate them using poison, kill traps and to some extent the local cats. In the final summer I killed 16 with classic spring traps, nearly all youngsters straight out of the nest (far easier to trap than experienced, neophobic adults.)

This year I haven't seen a single rat in the garden (fingers now crossed and touching wood!)

Get on top of it early is my recommendation, even though it will put your mice at risk.

John

 

[ChrisKten]

I'm not sure that's a good idea.... one of our neighbours overfed the birds and ended up with masses of food on the ground. The brook rats found it and moved into the entire row of back gardens (including ours) and it took three years to eliminate them using poison, kill traps and to some extent the local cats. In the final summer I killed 16 with classic spring traps, nearly all youngsters straight out of the nest (far easier to trap than experienced, neophobic adults.)

This year I haven't seen a single rat in the garden (fingers now crossed and touching wood!)

Get on top of it early is my recommendation, even though it will put your mice at risk.

John

Yeah, I will, John.

I hate to kill unless it's to relieve suffering, but I can't see me having much choice. I'll bring the feeders in tonight, and try to work out how to proceed without harming anything else - I don't want to kill the Squirrels in the process. The Mice mostly stick to the left side of the garden (come from under the fence), the Rat was on the right, with open ground between the two sides - so I might be able to limit traps to the right side of the garden... worth a try at least.

 

[Sangahyando]

I'm not sure that's a good idea.... one of our neighbours overfed the birds and ended up with masses of food on the ground. The brook rats found it and moved into the entire row of back gardens (including ours) and it took three years to eliminate them using poison, kill traps and to some extent the local cats. In the final summer I killed 16 with classic spring traps, nearly all youngsters straight out of the nest (far easier to trap than experienced, neophobic adults.)

This year I haven't seen a single rat in the garden (fingers now crossed and touching wood!)

Get on top of it early is my recommendation, even though it will put your mice at risk.

John

Sounds like it might've been worth hiring a ratting team with a bunch of terriers...

 

[Farnboro John]

Sounds like it might've been worth hiring a ratting team with a bunch of terriers...

The original problem came from an elderly couple with three ancient dogs, and I kid you not, one of my Sunday afternoons was blown by having to transport elderly Dave plus elderly terrier to the emergency vet for swabbing, dressing and antibiotics because it was fast enough to catch a rat and too slow to kill it without being bitten - and I was too slow to be out of the way when he needed a lift!

No, the old-fashioned spring mousetrap in rat size is the thing, bit of chocolate or peanut butter and WHACK!

BTW, I ought to have said this before, you may not place traps where they will catch or injure other wildlife, so you will need some tunnels to put them in: I knocked them up from some ex-decking a neighbour was disposing of, took two minutes and no measuring. You will need a saw, a hammer and some nails.* Poison baits tend to come in boxes anyway these days, but I think traps are cleaner and more efficient.

John

* plus of course band-aids and antiseptic.

 

[ChrisKten]

I forgot to say that the Rat looks like a youngster... about half of the size of a small Grey Squirrel, and looks very clean).

I'm still not sure how I'll deal with this. I'll bring in all feeders before dusk each day... maybe removing any potential food source will encourage it (yes I know, there's bound to be more ) to look elsewhere... so long as "elsewhere" isn't in the house. ATM, I can't think of anything to do without risking harm to other animals in the garden, but I'll research it thoroughly over the weekend. If anyone sees any Rats in their garden, I'll get the blame, even though people put out food for the feral cats each night - so doing nothing isn't an option, as it would mean I'd be forced to stop all bird feeding or get an ASBO.

What was it Spock said; “Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.”

 

[Farnboro John]

I forgot to say that the Rat looks like a youngster... about half of the size of a small Grey Squirrel, and looks very clean).

I'm still not sure how I'll deal with this. I'll bring in all feeders before dusk each day... maybe removing any potential food source will encourage it (yes I know, there's bound to be more ) to look elsewhere... so long as "elsewhere" isn't in the house. ATM, I can't think of anything to do without risking harm to other animals in the garden, but I'll research it thoroughly over the weekend. If anyone sees any Rats in their garden, I'll get the blame, even though people put out food for the feral cats each night - so doing nothing isn't an option, as it would mean I'd be forced to stop all bird feeding or get an ASBO.

What was it Spock said; “Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.”

The other option is borrow an air rifle.....

John