wolfbirder
Well-known member
Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere...........or already 
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Grouse moors to be licensed | The Scottish Farmer
-Grouse moors to be licensed | The Scottish Farmer
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Grouse Moors to be licensed in Scotland (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter wolfbirder
- Start date
The problem is grouse moors, not the licencing or otherwise of grouse moors. Beavers are "protected" and that hasn't worked out too well for them.
jqmhelios
Well-known member
Well, given how violently the shooting industry started screaming, they are scared of something seriously. This is a huge step forewards. And yes that idioticy about beavers was the worst that I have ever seen. Well, you know, second worst. The worst is the RSPB trying to prevent reintroductions of hen harriers. In which they will no doubt fail.
Great bustards were reintroduced. Hen harriers will certainly be, no matter how hard the RSPB screams. Question: why are there no plans to reintroduce Montagu's harrier??
Great bustards were reintroduced. Hen harriers will certainly be, no matter how hard the RSPB screams. Question: why are there no plans to reintroduce Montagu's harrier??
Farnboro John
Well-known member
Great Bustards are still not self-sustaining and most likely never will be, since the one-horse project will cease when the single prime mover gives up. The RSPB is not trying to prevent reintroduction of Hen Harriers, it is objecting to the idea that sport shooting estates should be allowed to shoot all but a small quota of them. There are no plans to reintroduce Montagu's Harrier because it is a bird at the edge of its range and that is the issue, not persecution (which if it was the issue, would anyway mean the species fails one rule of reintroduction project initiation: do not do this if the conditions that caused extinction have not been corrected.)
John
jqmhelios
Well-known member
They did breed though. They just need a little more time. This reintroduction went further than any other GB reintroduction ever. Even if not self-sustaining they can still be sustained. Like vultures with food in Spain.
How the RSPB sabotaged plans to reintroduce the hen harrier to southern England
What a very strange world we live in. As we all know, the hen harrier is the one bird of prey most revered by Chris Packham fans and the folk at Wild Justice. Indeed, 8 August has been made a designated ‘hen harrier day’, where celebrity speakers will no doubt discuss how much better the British...
That's where I got the info from. I mean, what is the meaning of that?
Montagu's harrier crashed due to persecution. The pair at Bircham Tofts was destroyed by persecution. It was extremely rare anyway- but was once breeding. And it still hangs around. They just need a little help.
david kelly
Drive-by Birder
You do know that that is an astroturfing group set up by the grousers don’t you. The RSPB oppose brood meddling because hen harriers are nomadic, most of the 2019 brood meddled birds flew onto grouse moors and you can guess what happened to them. They didn’t have happy endings!They did breed though. They just need a little more time. This reintroduction went further than any other GB reintroduction ever. Even if not self-sustaining they can still be sustained. Like vultures with food in Spain.
How the RSPB sabotaged plans to reintroduce the hen harrier to southern England
What a very strange world we live in. As we all know, the hen harrier is the one bird of prey most revered by Chris Packham fans and the folk at Wild Justice. Indeed, 8 August has been made a designated ‘hen harrier day’, where celebrity speakers will no doubt discuss how much better the British...www.c4pmc.co.uk
That's where I got the info from. I mean, what is the meaning of that?
Montagu's harrier crashed due to persecution. The pair at Bircham Tofts was destroyed by persecution. It was extremely rare anyway- but was once breeding. And it still hangs around. They just need a little help.
jqmhelios
Well-known member
Is that a valid reason to oppose reintroductions, especially on a plain which is the site of a succesfull great bustard reintroduction?
david kelly
Drive-by Birder
Crossed wires. I was talking about c4pmc, not the Great Bustard Group. If not, then yes it is. The harriers leave the release site fly onto a grouse moor and get killed. Until the killing stops reintroduction and brood meddling cannot work, if the killing stops brood meddling isn’t necessary.
David
David
Deb Burhinus
Used to be well known! 😎
To prevent even more misinformation and misunderstanding of raptor ecology being diseminated on the recent plethora of raptor threads, can I suggest the following reading (and other papers by the same ecologist)
community.rspb.org.uk
’Martin Harper, RSPB director of conservation, is reported as saying, ‘It would be wrong for us to support the reintroduction scheme until the main reason for harrier declines — illegal killing — stops.’.
and he is right’
For general and specific studies on raptor ecology/conservation proper peer-reviewed papers can be found here.
www.bto.org
Re Monty’s - The ‘decline’ of Montagu’s in Britain is not due to persecution (despite a number of human-caused fatalities) but due to the loss of traditional habitat and climatic changes. Montagu’s has always been a scarce breeder in the UK - populations are crashing everywhere not just the UK. It might even be the case, Pallid Harriers will eventually fill the niche.
Post in thread 'Sad news from BirdGuides'
https://www.birdforum.net/threads/sad-news-from-birdguides.402504/post-4110874
Killing of raptors to protect grouse
Guest blog by Ian Newton, UK Centre for Ecology & Hydrology and RSPB Vice President, on his new paper published in Ibis, detailing how raptors in Britain are still
community.rspb.org.uk
’Martin Harper, RSPB director of conservation, is reported as saying, ‘It would be wrong for us to support the reintroduction scheme until the main reason for harrier declines — illegal killing — stops.’.
and he is right’
For general and specific studies on raptor ecology/conservation proper peer-reviewed papers can be found here.
Our impartial research in Scotland
An overview of BTO Scotland's main research themes, interests and areas of expertise.
Re Monty’s - The ‘decline’ of Montagu’s in Britain is not due to persecution (despite a number of human-caused fatalities) but due to the loss of traditional habitat and climatic changes. Montagu’s has always been a scarce breeder in the UK - populations are crashing everywhere not just the UK. It might even be the case, Pallid Harriers will eventually fill the niche.
Post in thread 'Sad news from BirdGuides'
https://www.birdforum.net/threads/sad-news-from-birdguides.402504/post-4110874
jqmhelios
Well-known member
To me not reintroducing the birds is ridiculous. I have seen all these reasons and I feel my IQ dropping when I see the RSPB like that. White-tailed eagles are reintroduced no problem. Except persecution looms over them as well.To prevent even more misinformation and misunderstanding of raptor ecology being diseminated on the recent plethora of raptor threads, can I suggest the following reading (and other papers by the same ecologist)
Killing of raptors to protect grouse
Guest blog by Ian Newton, UK Centre for Ecology & Hydrology and RSPB Vice President, on his new paper published in Ibis, detailing how raptors in Britain are still
’Martin Harper, RSPB director of conservation, is reported as saying, ‘It would be wrong for us to support the reintroduction scheme until the main reason for harrier declines — illegal killing — stops.’.
and he is right’
For general and specific studies on raptor ecology/conservation proper peer-reviewed papers can be found here.
Our impartial research in Scotland
An overview of BTO Scotland's main research themes, interests and areas of expertise.
Re Monty’s - The ‘decline’ of Montagu’s in Britain is not due to persecution (despite a number of human-caused fatalities) but due to the loss of traditional habitat and climatic changes. Montagu’s has always been a scarce breeder in the UK - populations are crashing everywhere not just the UK. It might even be the case, Pallid Harriers will eventually fill the niche.
Post in thread 'Sad news from BirdGuides'
https://www.birdforum.net/threads/sad-news-from-birdguides.402504/post-4110874
Like I said, one pair was destroyed by persecution. The others are very vulnerable because they nest in cereal fields. But some of the figures I am seeing are wrong. In the UK it is most certainly persecution and disturbance, because it was plentiful here in the past. Same with marsh harriers. Except marsh harriers have returned. Why not return these too?
jqmhelios
Well-known member
Why can't 'brood meddling' work? If it is what I think it is, it has been EXTREMELY succesfull in Spain
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
Different death factors. In Spain, it is accidental death of unfledged young by crop-harvesting machinery, so moving the young away for a short period helps - once the crop is harvested, the birds are safe. In Britain, it is deliberate killing of all age groups, including adults. Moving the young doesn't help there, they are still not safe.
jqmhelios
Well-known member
It still happens in Spain- rarely and exceptionally- but it does.
Like I pointed out, white-tailed eagles have the same threat yet are being reintroduced in a lot of places now, as is the osprey. Salisbury Plain has been very safe for bustards. Nobody seems to care that they are heavily persecuted as well, in fact given a choice between a harrier and eagle I'll expect a farmer to shoot an eagle because it is far more dangerous to livestock.
I am repeating the question: why not hen harriers? So far I have seen nothing close to an explanation of why.
Sangahyando
Well-known member
Not necessarily safe. It depends on the density of the local fox population (not to mention other factors like weather). Moving the harriers doesn't hurt them, but the inevitable trails left by people make it easier for nocturnal predators to find the nests.
I think you have, you just chose to ignore it.
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Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
You neglect the antediluvian attitude of UK grouse moor owners and their gamekeepers. They will not rest until Hen Harrier has been totally eradicated from Britain (and quite possibly the rest of Europe, too) - they will send gunmen out to kill out Hen Harrier winter roosts hundreds of km from their grouse estates, just against the miniscule possibility that one of those harriers might turn up on their land years later. They simply will not tolerate the loss of one single grouse chick to a raptor, and they have the wealth and influence to act on this madness.
jqmhelios
Well-known member
Could you please show me the evidence that this is the case? I find it extremely difficult to believe that
Deb Burhinus
Used to be well known! 😎
Why would anyone want to release juvenile Hen Harriers into an environment that is toxic on so many levels?
“Driven grouse shooting is still a big part of the economy and culture of the UK, especially in Eastern Scotland and Northern England (around 1,600 grouse shooting providers see 47,000 guests each year) but it is beginning to fall out of favour causing many estates to struggle with the decrease in revenue they have come to depend on. For many estates the pressure is on to produce a good harvest and unfortunately, many groups or individuals will go to extremes lengths to ensure as many grouse as possible survive to be shot by paying visitors. In an area like moorland where there is nothing for miles, for many, the risk of being sent to prison is minimal compared with the thought of their grouse moor collapsing.
Of individuals convicted of offences related to raptor persecution since 1980, over 80% were involved with shooting and the majority of these were gamekeepers. Some keepers use spotlights at night to shoot female Hen harriers and poison and traps are still sometimes used. In fact, is estimated that 11-15% of the Scottish mainland harrier population is destroyed each year! Perhaps even more shockingly studies propose that 72% of young satellite-tagged Hen harriers will disappear in suspicious circumstances on grouse moors in Northern England each year. Scientific evidence suggests that the illegal persecution of Hen harriers, associated with the management of moorlands for intensively rearing large numbers of grouse, is the main factor limiting their recovery in the UK.”
It’s a fallacy to think grouse moor gamekeepers won’t do everything they can to prevent predation of grouse by Hen Harriers
Hen Harriers and Raptor Persecution - Feathers and Fur
What is a Hen Harrier? Hen harriers (Circus cyaneus) are the most intensely persecuted bird of prey in the UK and are native to this country. They are an RSPB Red Listed species, meaning they are one of the highest conservation priority species in the UK and are deemed to need urgent action. Hen...
For a good overall synopsis on status of raptors in Europe and the causes of decline, this makes depressing reading
I think it’s got beyond the point where raptor conservationists should have to prove Grouse moor gamekeepers are responsible for such extensive Hen Harrier killings but rather Grouse moor owners and their gamekeepers should darn well prove they are not!
I would question anyone’s integrity that chooses to downplay the seriousness and extent of the problem and
who attack people that do not want to see newly released Hen Harriers being shot down out of the sky or lulled to their deaths with poisoned bait. In the least, I would hope those with doubts as to the wisdom of withholding Hen Harrier releases, do further research and reading.
Registered under a new name, but still the same Gleb
jqmhelios
Well-known member
Like I said, show me the evidence people track down winter roosts and shoot the birdsWhy would anyone want to release juvenile Hen Harriers into an environment that is toxic on so many levels?
“Driven grouse shooting is still a big part of the economy and culture of the UK, especially in Eastern Scotland and Northern England (around 1,600 grouse shooting providers see 47,000 guests each year) but it is beginning to fall out of favour causing many estates to struggle with the decrease in revenue they have come to depend on. For many estates the pressure is on to produce a good harvest and unfortunately, many groups or individuals will go to extremes lengths to ensure as many grouse as possible survive to be shot by paying visitors. In an area like moorland where there is nothing for miles, for many, the risk of being sent to prison is minimal compared with the thought of their grouse moor collapsing.
Of individuals convicted of offences related to raptor persecution since 1980, over 80% were involved with shooting and the majority of these were gamekeepers. Some keepers use spotlights at night to shoot female Hen harriers and poison and traps are still sometimes used. In fact, is estimated that 11-15% of the Scottish mainland harrier population is destroyed each year! Perhaps even more shockingly studies propose that 72% of young satellite-tagged Hen harriers will disappear in suspicious circumstances on grouse moors in Northern England each year. Scientific evidence suggests that the illegal persecution of Hen harriers, associated with the management of moorlands for intensively rearing large numbers of grouse, is the main factor limiting their recovery in the UK.”
It’s a fallacy to think grouse moor gamekeepers won’t do everything they can to prevent predation of grouse by Hen Harriers
Hen Harriers and Raptor Persecution - Feathers and Fur
What is a Hen Harrier? Hen harriers (Circus cyaneus) are the most intensely persecuted bird of prey in the UK and are native to this country. They are an RSPB Red Listed species, meaning they are one of the highest conservation priority species in the UK and are deemed to need urgent action. Hen...feathersandfur.co.uk
For a good overall synopsis on status of raptors in Europe and the causes of decline, this makes depressing reading
I think it’s got beyond the point where raptor conservationists should have to prove Grouse moor gamekeepers are responsible for such extensive Hen Harrier killings but rather Grouse moor owners and their gamekeepers should darn well prove they are not!
I would question anyone’s integrity that chooses to downplay the seriousness and extent of the problem and
who attack people that do not want to see newly released Hen Harriers being shot down out of the sky or lulled to their deaths with poisoned bait. In the least, I would hope those with doubts as to the wisdom of withholding Hen Harrier releases, do further research and reading.
jqmhelios
Well-known member
I am repeating the question: why not hen harriers? First ospreys, now white-tailed eagles, now bustards and storks, why not hen harriers? Until someone explains this to me I think I'll go with what I'm seeing : the RSPB sabotaging these efforts. Should be obvious these people are unable to explain why the RSPB went behind the back of Nature England and complained to SEO.
Stop trying to divert.
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