Like the split of Asian Dowitcher from the other 2 dowitchers being older than some passerine families?Isn't the age of the lineages overestimated? I find them super old for the most part. 🧐
Or almost 30 mya for the first lineage of Burhinidae, it's huge !!Like the split of Asian Dowitcher from the other 2 dowitchers being older than some passerine families?
Or almost 30 mya for the first lineage of Burhinidae, it's huge !!
Mostly fits well with other divergence time estimates for Charadriiformes. Thick-knees, plovers, sandpipers, coursers and auks always show up as comprising lots of very old lineages.Isn't the age of the lineages overestimated? I find them super old for the most part. 🧐
It could well be that their position in the tree would be due to errors from what I understand...positions of Lymnocryptes, Eupoda asiatica, Vanellus duvaucelii, Glareola ocularis and Stercorarius longicaudus are unexpected...
Great paper...wish they tackled what should or shouldn't be a family, since the dates here seem more reasonable than all of the prior papers focused on this clade. It would be nice if an effort was made to figure out just what should count as a family within Charadriiformes, since there is still some confusion here
The position of Lymnocryptes makes no sense, and is likely due to the RAG1 sequence EF373192, which is probably a chimera -- the first 900 bp of the sequence are fully identical to Limosa haemastica.
This species [Ortyxelos meiffrenii – DČ] is not even in the figure 🧐
Usage of the name magnirostris in Burhinidae is a complete mess: without knowing which sequences they used, it's very hard to be sure.
Isn't the age of the lineages overestimated? I find them super old for the most part. 🧐
Oystercatchers are convincingly shown elsewhere to constitute an Old World and a New World clade
positions of Lymnocryptes, Eupoda asiatica, Vanellus duvaucelii, Glareola ocularis and Stercorarius longicaudus are unexpected, and monophyletic noddies as sibling to terns was definitely a surprise.
Interesting; do you happen to have a citation for that?
Please note that nowhere in the preprint do we proclaim “this is The One True Phylogeny; bow down before it”....
Or it's true affinities may lie elsewhere TomGiven the age of Turnici, Ortyxelos might prove to be a seperate family?
Unless surprised, e.g. potential paraphyly of Ortyxelos within TurnixGiven the age of Turnici, Ortyxelos might prove to be a seperate family?
Hi David.Hi everyone,
I’m one of the authors of the preprint under discussion. Thank you all for your interest in our work; it’s very exciting to see it provoking thoughtful discussions before it has even been published. At the same time, let me take this opportunity to remind everyone that for the time being, our study is really just that: a preprint, not a published paper. It hasn’t passed peer review yet. That’s a good thing – it means that any potential errors can still be fixed!
I thought I could perhaps clear up potential confusion and respond to some of the comments here:
We didn’t tackle this question because it can’t really be tackled. Unlike clades, families are not objectively real biological entities whose existence can be inferred from data. The number of families is not decided by analysis but by convention. I’m well aware that there have been efforts to make ranking schemes objective by basing them on divergence time cut-offs, but at the end of the day, the choice of such a cut-off is still either arbitrary or circular (“let’s choose a cut-off that will allow us to keep calling the current families families”). Personally, I find arguing about what should or should not be a family tedious and pointless: again, there is no way to really “win” that argument, because it’s ultimately decided by convention, and you’re not learning anything about your group in the process. The time would be better spent on using your phylogeny to investigate questions of actual biological interest: things like trait evolution, diversification rates, historical biogeography, and their potential connections. Most biologists today feel the same way.
That’s a very interesting point; thank you for raising it. You’re right that the position of Lymnocryptes within Limosinae is driven by RAG1; none of the other four loci we have for the taxon (12S, Cox1, CytB, ND2) backs it up. That explains why the result doesn’t occur in the ASTRAL analysis. As for the alternatives:
You’re also correct about the first 907 bp of the Lymnocryptes and Limosa haemastica RAG1 sequences being identical. Is that suspicious? I’m not sure. RAG1 is a slowly evolving nuclear gene with very high sequence identity among closely related species. Tringa brevipes, for example, only differs from L. haemastica in 23 positions (excluding indeterminate residues) over the same 907-bp stretch. L. haemastica and the congeneric L. limosa differ in 8. If you drop this stretch and only focus on the rest of the 2,736-bp Lymnocryptes sequence, you’ll find that it still has higher sequence identity with L. haemastica (97.6%; 43 differences) than with Limnodromus scolopaceus (97.2%; 51 differences). Of course, percent identity is only an imperfect proxy for phylogenetic relatedness, but we’d expect the opposite to be more likely if Lymnocryptes was a scolopacine and its RAG1 sequence was chimerical.
- Cox1 has Lymnocryptes nested within a paraphyletic Limnodromus;
- ND2 shows Limnodromus to be paraphyletic with respect to both Lymnocryptes and the rest of Scolopacinae;
- CytB has Lymnocryptes inside a clade that includes all the usual representatives of Scolopacinae and Tringinae but doesn’t find those two subfamilies to be reciprocally monophyletic;
- With 12S, the sandpipers as a whole are a massively polyphyletic mess in which nothing makes sense and none of the five established subfamilies come out monophyletic.
Any evidence that KY419888 comes from the Kentish rather than the long-billed plover? As I’m sure you know (the GenBank annotation you link to says as much), the mitogenome was published in a paper specially written for that purpose (Lee et al. 2017; doi:10.1080/23802359.2017.1292473), and the publisher’s website doesn’t link to any later corrections. It would be a pretty astonishing failure if a paper solely dedicated to sequencing the mitogenome of the long-billed plover actually sequenced a different species by accident.
The fact that a short Cox1 fragment favors a different position for the taxon than the mitogenome as a whole doesn’t mean much. That happens all the time; stochastic error is pervasive in short-sequence phylogenies.
That’s because there are currently no data available for it, as we explicitly say in section 4.1.
Agreed; this was one of the toughest nuts to crack during the taxonomic reconciliation process. As it happens, we used no sequences for Esacus/Burhinus magnirostris at all. It’s one of the 31 species whose position in the tree is based solely on the morphological dataset assembled by Strauch (1978) and corrected by Chu (1995; see the preprint for the full citations). Our Burhinus magnirostris is Strauch’s Esacus magnirostris; Strauch’s Burhinus magnirostris is our Burhinus grallarius. I actually remember the exact moment I became really paranoid about whether we got this right; I checked our matrix cell by cell against Strauch’s Table 1, and to my great relief found out that everything was as it was supposed to be.
Incidentally, if you’re skeptical about the paraphyly of Burhinus with respect to Esacus, this pretty much explains where that finding comes from. The phylogenetic signal in the 69 morphological characters is very weak, and so their ability to discriminate between competing hypotheses about taxon placement is very low: in technical phylogenetic terms, we would speak of a flat likelihood surface. The 69 characters contribute so little to the overall tree likelihood that if you have nothing else from a taxon, its placement will be close to random. Not completely random – there is some signal for burhinid interrelationships in the Strauch matrix – but close.
Maybe it is. Bayesian node-dating is hard. Calibration choice exerts huge influence on the results; in our tree, a lot probably hinges on whether a single fossil specimen from the late Eocene is a pan-alcid or not. Calibration priors interact both with one another and with the branching-process prior. The choice of the relaxed clock model – in more understandable terms, the assumptions you make about how the rate of DNA evolution itself evolves along the tree – matters a lot. The DNA sequence data can rule out certain combinations of branch rates and branching times, but for any given rate, you can always find a branching time that will make it work, and vice versa.
In the preprint, we go over these things in some detail, and we note that studies employing greater amounts of sequence data will likely be able to do better. For now, though, I have no reason to suspect that our node ages are systematically overestimated. Is it weird, as another user mentioned, that the divergences among the dowitchers – members of the same genus – are older than some passerine families? Well, not really, because taxonomic ranks like “genus” and “family” have no biological meaning. Traditionally, rank assignment has been based on phenotypic distinctiveness and the number of included species, both of which do correlate with the time elapsed since a group’s origin, but only imperfectly. Unequal rates of diversification and phenotypic evolution can cause that correlation to break down in all sorts of ways.
Interesting; do you happen to have a citation for that?
Please note that nowhere in the preprint do we proclaim “this is The One True Phylogeny; bow down before it” – there is a reason for that! We used multiple analytical methods and even multiple datasets (molecules only vs. molecules + morphology); all of these yielded estimates that differed from one another to various degrees. Even within any given tree, not all nodes are equally trustworthy; some are robust while others are barely any better than the next best alternative. I think that in the preprint, we were rather upfront about all this: we dedicated a lot of space to pointing out poorly supported relationships, discussed conflicts between different trees and their possible causes, and highlighted areas in need of improvement. So I find it surprising that the discussion here tends to ignore all of that uncertainty. Are those taxa’s positions unexpected? Well, which ones? We found multiple!
Or perhaps basal to the coursers?Unless surprised, e.g. potential paraphyly of Ortyxelos within Turnix
Or perhaps basal to the coursers?
Not stupidOr perhaps basal to the coursers?
Only time will tellNot stupid
It doesn't look like a turnix indeedOnly time will tell
If new samples are available (for Ortyxelos, could you easily get some from voucher?), It would be interesting to study these families or genera in separate works.Hi everyone,
I’m one of the authors of the preprint under discussion. Thank you all for your interest in our work; it’s very exciting to see it provoking thoughtful discussions before it has even been published. At the same time, let me take this opportunity to remind everyone that for the time being, our study is really just that: a preprint, not a published paper. It hasn’t passed peer review yet. That’s a good thing – it means that any potential errors can still be fixed!
I thought I could perhaps clear up potential confusion and respond to some of the comments here:
We didn’t tackle this question because it can’t really be tackled. Unlike clades, families are not objectively real biological entities whose existence can be inferred from data. The number of families is not decided by analysis but by convention. I’m well aware that there have been efforts to make ranking schemes objective by basing them on divergence time cut-offs, but at the end of the day, the choice of such a cut-off is still either arbitrary or circular (“let’s choose a cut-off that will allow us to keep calling the current families families”). Personally, I find arguing about what should or should not be a family tedious and pointless: again, there is no way to really “win” that argument, because it’s ultimately decided by convention, and you’re not learning anything about your group in the process. The time would be better spent on using your phylogeny to investigate questions of actual biological interest: things like trait evolution, diversification rates, historical biogeography, and their potential connections. Most biologists today feel the same way.
That’s a very interesting point; thank you for raising it. You’re right that the position of Lymnocryptes within Limosinae is driven by RAG1; none of the other four loci we have for the taxon (12S, Cox1, CytB, ND2) backs it up. That explains why the result doesn’t occur in the ASTRAL analysis. As for the alternatives:
You’re also correct about the first 907 bp of the Lymnocryptes and Limosa haemastica RAG1 sequences being identical. Is that suspicious? I’m not sure. RAG1 is a slowly evolving nuclear gene with very high sequence identity among closely related species. Tringa brevipes, for example, only differs from L. haemastica in 23 positions (excluding indeterminate residues) over the same 907-bp stretch. L. haemastica and the congeneric L. limosa differ in 8. If you drop this stretch and only focus on the rest of the 2,736-bp Lymnocryptes sequence, you’ll find that it still has higher sequence identity with L. haemastica (97.6%; 43 differences) than with Limnodromus scolopaceus (97.2%; 51 differences). Of course, percent identity is only an imperfect proxy for phylogenetic relatedness, but we’d expect the opposite to be more likely if Lymnocryptes was a scolopacine and its RAG1 sequence was chimerical.
- Cox1 has Lymnocryptes nested within a paraphyletic Limnodromus;
- ND2 shows Limnodromus to be paraphyletic with respect to both Lymnocryptes and the rest of Scolopacinae;
- CytB has Lymnocryptes inside a clade that includes all the usual representatives of Scolopacinae and Tringinae but doesn’t find those two subfamilies to be reciprocally monophyletic;
- With 12S, the sandpipers as a whole are a massively polyphyletic mess in which nothing makes sense and none of the five established subfamilies come out monophyletic.
Any evidence that KY419888 comes from the Kentish rather than the long-billed plover? As I’m sure you know (the GenBank annotation you link to says as much), the mitogenome was published in a paper specially written for that purpose (Lee et al. 2017; doi:10.1080/23802359.2017.1292473), and the publisher’s website doesn’t link to any later corrections. It would be a pretty astonishing failure if a paper solely dedicated to sequencing the mitogenome of the long-billed plover actually sequenced a different species by accident.
The fact that a short Cox1 fragment favors a different position for the taxon than the mitogenome as a whole doesn’t mean much. That happens all the time; stochastic error is pervasive in short-sequence phylogenies.
That’s because there are currently no data available for it, as we explicitly say in section 4.1.
Agreed; this was one of the toughest nuts to crack during the taxonomic reconciliation process. As it happens, we used no sequences for Esacus/Burhinus magnirostris at all. It’s one of the 31 species whose position in the tree is based solely on the morphological dataset assembled by Strauch (1978) and corrected by Chu (1995; see the preprint for the full citations). Our Burhinus magnirostris is Strauch’s Esacus magnirostris; Strauch’s Burhinus magnirostris is our Burhinus grallarius. I actually remember the exact moment I became really paranoid about whether we got this right; I checked our matrix cell by cell against Strauch’s Table 1, and to my great relief found out that everything was as it was supposed to be.
Incidentally, if you’re skeptical about the paraphyly of Burhinus with respect to Esacus, this pretty much explains where that finding comes from. The phylogenetic signal in the 69 morphological characters is very weak, and so their ability to discriminate between competing hypotheses about taxon placement is very low: in technical phylogenetic terms, we would speak of a flat likelihood surface. The 69 characters contribute so little to the overall tree likelihood that if you have nothing else from a taxon, its placement will be close to random. Not completely random – there is some signal for burhinid interrelationships in the Strauch matrix – but close.
Maybe it is. Bayesian node-dating is hard. Calibration choice exerts huge influence on the results; in our tree, a lot probably hinges on whether a single fossil specimen from the late Eocene is a pan-alcid or not. Calibration priors interact both with one another and with the branching-process prior. The choice of the relaxed clock model – in more understandable terms, the assumptions you make about how the rate of DNA evolution itself evolves along the tree – matters a lot. The DNA sequence data can rule out certain combinations of branch rates and branching times, but for any given rate, you can always find a branching time that will make it work, and vice versa.
In the preprint, we go over these things in some detail, and we note that studies employing greater amounts of sequence data will likely be able to do better. For now, though, I have no reason to suspect that our node ages are systematically overestimated. Is it weird, as another user mentioned, that the divergences among the dowitchers – members of the same genus – are older than some passerine families? Well, not really, because taxonomic ranks like “genus” and “family” have no biological meaning. Traditionally, rank assignment has been based on phenotypic distinctiveness and the number of included species, both of which do correlate with the time elapsed since a group’s origin, but only imperfectly. Unequal rates of diversification and phenotypic evolution can cause that correlation to break down in all sorts of ways.
Interesting; do you happen to have a citation for that?
Please note that nowhere in the preprint do we proclaim “this is The One True Phylogeny; bow down before it” – there is a reason for that! We used multiple analytical methods and even multiple datasets (molecules only vs. molecules + morphology); all of these yielded estimates that differed from one another to various degrees. Even within any given tree, not all nodes are equally trustworthy; some are robust while others are barely any better than the next best alternative. I think that in the preprint, we were rather upfront about all this: we dedicated a lot of space to pointing out poorly supported relationships, discussed conflicts between different trees and their possible causes, and highlighted areas in need of improvement. So I find it surprising that the discussion here tends to ignore all of that uncertainty. Are those taxa’s positions unexpected? Well, which ones? We found multiple!
Forgotten Scolopacidae :Taxonomy in flux has a substantial update focused on Charadriiformes:
Magellanic Plover: The Magellanic Plover family, Pluvianellidae, has been demoted to a subfamily (Pluvianellinae) of the sheathbill family Chionidae.
[Chionidae, Charadriiformes, 3.06]
Thick-knees: Based on Paton et al. (2003) and Černý and Natale, (2021), the genus Burhinus is divided into three genera:
- An unnamed genus designated "Burhinus", which includes the Double-striped Thick-knee, "Burhinus" bistriatus, and the Peruvian Thick-knee, "Burhinus" superciliaris
- Burhinus itself is now reduced to a single species, the Bush Stone-Curlew, Burhinus grallarius
- Oedicnemus (Temminck 1815), type oedicnemus, the Eurasian Stone-Curlew. This genus includes all four other species formerly included in Burhinus.
[Burhinidae, Charadriiformes, 3.06]
Stilts and Avocets: The Banded Stilt, Cladorhynchus leucocephalus, is basal in family Recurvirostridae, which has been rearranged accordingly.
[Recurvirostridae, Charadriiformes, 3.06]
Far Eastern Oystercatcher, Haematopus osculans: Based on Senfeld et al. (2020b), the Far Eastern Oystercatcher, Haematopus osculans, has been split from the Eurasian Oystercatcher, Haematopus ostralegus.
[Haematopodidae, Charadriiformes, 3.06]
Oystercatchers: Based on Senfeld et al. (2020b), the American Oystercatchers have been separated in genus Prohaematopus (Matthews 1913), type ater.
[Haematopodidae, Charadriiformes, 3.06]
Charadriidae Genus Changes:
- The Hooded Dotterel is referred to as "Thinornis" cucullatus
- Forbes's Plover is referred to as "Afroxyechus" forbesi
- The Pied Lapwing / Pied Plover is transferred to the monotypic genus Hoploxypterus (Bonaparte, 1856)
- Vanellus is restricted to the Northern Lapwing
- Southern Lapwing and Andean Lapwing are transferred to Belonopterus (Reichenbach 1852, type chilensis)
- Until we know more, the other 20 lapwings have been placed in Hoplopterus (Bonaparte 1831, type spinosus). I did not find the total evidence tree useful here as it contradicts the available genetic data. I retained the previous arrangement of the Vanellinae, with the above genera pulled out.
- The Double-banded Plover, Anarhynchus bicinctus, is transferred to the monotypic genus Nesoceryx (Mathews, 1920).
- The New Zealand Plover, Anarhynchus obscurus, is transferred to the monotypic genus Pluviorhynchus (Bonaparte 1856).
- Finally, Ochthodromus is divided into Leucopolius (Bonaparte 1856), type marginatus, Helenaegialus (Mathews 1913), type sanctaehelenae, and Ochthodromus (Reichenbach 1852), type wilsonia.
[Charadriidae, Charadriiformes, 3.06]
Buttonquails: The buttonquail tree was constructed by combining the species groups described by Debus (1996) with the 7-species phylogeny of Černý and Natale (2021). I was surprised there were no conflicts.
[Turnicidae, Charadriiformes, 3.06]
Coursers and Pratincoles:
- The Double-banded Courser, previously Rhinoptilus africanus, has been transferred to Smutsornis (Roberts 1922, monotypic).
- The Gray Pratincole, Glareola cinerea, and Small Pratincole, Glareola lactea have been transferred to Galachrysia (Bonaparte 1856, type lactea). The movement that prompted this was based on DNA analyzed by Černý and Natale (2021).
- The Rock Pratincole, Glareola nuchalis, and Madagascan Pratincole, Glareola ocularis, have been transferred to Subglareola (Mathews 1913, type ocularis).
- I have restored the monotypic genus Stiltia (G.R. Gray, 1855, type isabella) which I had previously submerged in Glareola.
[Glareolidae, Charadriiformes, 3.06]
Jaegers and Skuas: The Stercorariidae have been rearranged slightly to conform with Černý and Natale (2021).
[Stercorariidae, Charadriiformes, 3.06]
Tropical Murrelets: The three tropical murrelets, Craveri's Murrelet, Synthliboramphus craveri, Scripps's Murrelet, Synthliboramphus scrippsi, and Guadelupe Murrelet, Synthliboramphus hypoleucus, have been transferred to genus Endomychura (Oberholser 1899, type hypoleuca).
[Alcidae, Charadriiformes, 3.06]
Terns and Skimmers: The Terns have been promoted to a family, Sternidae, with two subfamilies, Rynchopinae (skimmers) and Gyginae (white terns). The gull and tern families form the superfamily Laroidea.
[Sternidae, Charadriiformes, 3.06]
Gulls and Noddies: The Noddies (Anous = Anouinae) are treated as a subfamily of the gulls (Laridae) based on the genetic trees from Černý and Natale (2021). The relevant material can be found in Figures A-3 and A-5 of the supplementary material.
[Laridae, Charadriiformes, 3.06]
New Larid Genera: Based on Černý and Natale (2021), I've recognized three additional genera in the gulls:
- The Slender-billed Gull, Chroicocephalus genei, is separated from the other Chroicocephalus by about 10 million years. It is also distinctive, and I've moved it to genus Gelastes (Bonaparte 1856, monotypic).
- The division between Dolphin and Gray Gulls on one hand, and Laughing, Franklin's, and Lava Gulls on the other is about 6 million years, enough to support different genera. Moreover, they obviously form two, or even three groups. Accordingly, the Laughing, Franklin's and Lava Gulls have been moved to Atricilla (Bonaparte 1854, type atricilla). It would not be unreasonable to also split the Gray Gull, Leucophaeus modestus. In that case it would be genus Blasipus (Bruch 1853).
- The band-tailed gulls (4 species) are transferred to genus Gabianus (Bruch 1853, type pacificus).
The TiF list has adopted Figs. A-5 and A-6 from Černý and Natale for the Larus gulls.
[Laridae, Charadriiformes, 3.06]
Mew Gull: As in the AOS Supplement #62, the Mew Gull, Larus canus, is split into:
- Common Gull, Larus canus
- Short-billed Gull, Larus brachyrhynchus
[Laridae, Charadriiformes, 3.06]