Do we know this for sure? —genuine questionsince they don't mix .
Core ranges, yes, but what would stop a vagrant smithsonianus from breeding with a European Herring Gull? On a population level, yes, you are correct that the two species don't 'mix' as in there is no overlap zone where both breed, but gene flow is still possible, of course, at least occasionally.where should that be? ranges are far apart from each other.
Vagrant US gulls are common enough (1+ pa) for the populations to be indistinguishable a genetic point of viewCore ranges, yes, but what would stop a vagrant smithsonianus from breeding with a European Herring Gull? On a population level, yes, you are correct that the two species don't 'mix' as in there is no overlap zone where both breed, but gene flow is still possible, of course, at least occasionally.
That'll be partly because the offspring would be almost impossible* to recognise and coming across actual breeding a very rare event statistically?! Presumably an adult American Herring Gull over here would still want to breed ...yes, but apart from Ring-billed Gull, no hybridization events with european taxa have been documented, this side of the pond, and none on the other side.
That'll be partly because the offspring would be almost impossible* to recognise and coming across actual breeding a very rare event statistically?! Presumably an adult American Herring Gull over here would still want to breed ...
Just had a quick look; check out 'Appledore Gull' in N America - LBBG and AHG. LBBG formerly a vagrant species.
*(plenty of 'odd' birds about mi
Appledore Gull is a hybrid between 2 genuine American breeders (while Greenland is sth. 'in between', still undetected small colonies of LBBG have to be somewhere on Labrador and LBBG is wintering in large numbers in NA.). And yes, a putative smith x arg would be extremely hard to recognize on either side of the pond. But it's very unlikely, especially in the context of a large number of smith-lookalike argentatus in Iceland and Norway.That'll be partly because the offspring would be almost impossible* to recognise and coming across actual breeding a very rare event statistically?! Presumably an adult American Herring Gull over here would still want to breed ...
Just had a quick look; check out 'Appledore Gull' in N America - LBBG and AHG. LBBG formerly a vagrant species.
*(plenty of 'odd' birds about mind)
Sorry I find this hard to follow. The previous sentence said "very hard to detect" and here we say there's a population in between which is arg- but looks like smith-. This sort of sounds like evidence of intergradation to me but at the v least surely reinforces the point that hybridisation is a) possible, and b) would likely be extremely difficult to detect from phenotypes.But it's very unlikely, especially in the context of a large number of smith-lookalike argentatus in Iceland and Norway.
sorry for the misunderstanding. the 'in between part' was describing Greenland (as host of substantial LBBG colonies) geaografically, between NA and Europe. So Appledore Gulls (LBBG x American Herring Gulls hybrids) are much more likely and relative commonly observed, just because some of the many wintering LBBG seem to decide to stay with a smithsonianus as partner. Not so with argentatus and smithsonianus which only occasionally get to each others opposite side of the pond. If such a bird breeds with a non-conspecific partner on the "wrong" side, this wouldn't cause any gene flow into the populations.Sorry I find this hard to follow. The previous sentence said "very hard to detect" and here we say there's a population in between which is arg- but looks like smith-. This sort of sounds like evidence of intergradation to me but at the v least surely reinforces the point that hybridisation is a) possible, and b) would likely be extremely difficult to detect from phenotypes.
I think gulls are really interesting from an evolution-in-action point of view, but don't ask me to draw species limits between the big ones while there's no good modern/recent molecular work (that I'm aware of).
Yes we can see different more or less well marked phenotypes but then we can for redpolls too...
I was thinking of it as an example where in the recent past (last couple of centuries?) it wasn't an American breeder - presumably the earliest ones in N America would still also have hybridised with AHG. (As an aside - how recent is the Greenland population of LBBG?) as an example of a vagrant hybridising.Appledore Gull is a hybrid between 2 genuine American breeders (while Greenland is sth. 'in between', still undetected small colonies of LBBG have to be somewhere on Labrador and LBBG is wintering in large numbers in NA.). And yes, a putative smith x arg would be extremely hard to recognize on either side of the pond. But it's very unlikely, especially in the context of a large number of smith-lookalike argentatus in Iceland and Norway.
Puzzled. If a bird from one population/species breeds successfully - even only once - with, and within the range of, birds of another population/species then that is gene-flow between those populations, even if only in one direction and minute.Not so with argentatus and smithsonianus which only occasionally get to each others opposite side of the pond. If such a bird breeds with a non-conspecific partner on the "wrong" side, this wouldn't cause any gene flow into the populations.
Puzzled. If a bird from one population/species breeds successfully - even only once - with, and within the range of, birds of another population/species then that is gene-flow between those populations, even if only in one direction and minute