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Message: <blockquote data-quote="p wolf" data-source="post: 1366082" data-attributes="member: 61419">Hi Smiths (Peter?) & all,on my own pics/descriptions of 2cy cachinnans taken in the Netherlands the percentage of birds showing a white mirror on p10 is 71% (10 out of 14). That could just mean that I use a different set of characters that a gull has to show before I call it a cachinnans. The only pics I have pics of a 2cy from the breeding range (with a Ukrainian ring) does have a clear white mirror on p10. As Harry wrote, high time for a colour-ring programme in the core breeding range. I know Norman van Swelm made a start a few years back but as far as i know only metal rings are used nowadays. Not too hard to organize, but someone has got to go out and do it. Things being as they are in Ukraïne, it's not very likely that they will start such a programme themselves.On the subject of 2nd cycle L.a. argentatus with a mirror on p10, the ones I have seen all looked like far northern argentatus, i.e. the ones least likely to come into contact with cachinnans. Did you see any 2cy in Finland/Poland with mirrors on p10?groeten, pim wolf</blockquote>