Gull species for id, Hokkaido, Japan (1 Viewer)

[James Eaton]

Hi all,

Thought this might be of interest for those into identifying a potential out-of-range larid. This bird was in a large flock of Slaty-backed and Glaucous-winged Gulls. Bird was noticeably smaller than both of those but larger than the nearby Kamchatka Gulls.

Photo was taken in strong sunlight on 14th January in Rausu Harbour, Hokkaido, Japan.

Also, could anybody comment on the status of the more rare white-wingers in Japan please...

Cheers,

James

 

[rockfowl]

Not sure on the status of the rarer ww's James but interesting site here if it hasn't crossed your radar - http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/gullidentifi_.htm

 

[J Jones]

Thought this might be of interest for those into identifying a potential out-of-range larid. This bird was in a large flock of Slaty-backed and Glaucous-winged Gulls. Bird was noticeably smaller than both of those but larger than the nearby Kamchatka Gulls.

Photo was taken in strong sunlight on 14th January in Rausu Harbour, Hokkaido, Japan.

Also, could anybody comment on the status of the more rare white-wingers in Japan please...

From your post I'd say you were being quite suggestive as to it's identification; what were your thoughts? I'm presuming not Iceland or Glaucous?!

 

[J Jones]

Incidentally you might find these interesting:

http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/hybridGw1225/hybGwGl_1225.html

http://larus.hp.infoseek.co.jp/G_GW_hy/G_GW.html

http://vegae.hp.infoseek.co.jp/hybGwGl1w2/hyb1wGwGl2.html

EDIT: perhaps I should have pointed out that this is what I expect it probably is...

 

[JANJ]

James.

I tend to agree with Josh on the hybrid theory, and possible GWG x GG. There might however be other candidates. The stocky structure leads in this direction.
Although rare in Hokkaido kumieni could be considered but the short-winged impression large bill and primary pattern doe´s not fit kumlieni so good. It seems that the tail is rather pale and lack markings.

http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/40466424

http://starling.dyndns.org/~birdkitahiro/hokkaido/gulls/gullsnew.htm

JanJ

 

[James Eaton]

Hi Josh,

Interested in the status of Iceland Gull actually, as I didn't have a field guide with me I have no idea on the status of this species - I've just noted the complete lack of sightings in all my literature to hand.

Great site Mark, not sure I've looked at this in 3-4 years!

 

[James Eaton]

Hi JanJ, you just beat me to my reply! Kumlieni was our guess - from the moment we picked it up in bins we didn't think of anything else really - shape and size compared to the neighbouring Glaucous, Glaucous-winged and Slaty-backed Gulls suggested this too.

Could a hybrid GWxGlauc ever appear so small? I was impressed with just how big G-W look, especially their sheer bulk, often bigger than the Glaucous Gulls.

Attached are a couple of other images of the bird.

 

[Julian Sykes Wildlife]

Very interesting gull - might be worth PMing Derek Charles who is a Bf member from Northern Ireland and very good on this complex from his experiences in Ireland.

Just a thought and hope you get a successful conclusion.

All the best Jules

 

[lou salomon]

as both GWG and Glauc are pretty monsters in size and bulk it is hard to believe they were the parents. admittedly kumlieni has a totally different structure - long wings and weaker bill, more elegant not pot bellied. so, definitely not a pure bird of the glaucoides superspecies. a hybrid with glaucoides/kumlieni is really unlikely as they're breeding ranges are pretty far awy from GWG. a dwarfy GWG x Glauc then?

 

[J Jones]

It does look quite kumlieni-like, especially when photos are posted showing size against Slaty-backs! However, that bill is too heavy and structurally it is very stocky, lacking the elegance of Kumlien's. Also primary projection is not all too long.

Still reckon the hybrid option is probably the way forward here, perhaps Glaucous X Glaucous-winged as previously suggested. Some Glaucous can be tiny (we saw an almost barrovianus-like bird the size of an Iceland Gull in Cork, Ireland, in December but thats another story).

A few Kumliens, showing different structure to the bird in question:

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/6181/inter4.jpg

http://www.birdguides.com/pictures/default.asp?v=1&f=165627&r=0&st=0&q=

http://www.birdguides.com/pictures/default.asp?f=40320&r=0&st=0&v=0&q=

 

[nialltkeogh]

Hi Josh,

Any pics of the small Glauc from Cork???

See ya,
Niall

 

[J Jones]

Niall,

It was at Castletown Bearhaven on 30th Dec (God knows why I put February in the previous posting); I deleted mine as they were taken with the camera only and all you could see was a blur (appalling light and blowing a gale). I will see if Rich still has his images of it (again, camera only) but they will at least provide some idea of scale (basically Iceland-like structure, smaller than Herring, long-winged etc).

I'd imagine it is probably still there; I know Castletown is relatively out of the way but it amazes me people don't get out there more often...!

Josh

 

[JANJ]

Of course it might be a problem as to size suggesting a GWG x GG, although size is variable and sex related. As much as it has some good kumlieni traits, such as plumage features, the primary pattern is varible in kumlieni but the pattern of the outer primaries as seen here:

http://www.pbase.com/jpkln/image/39934295

with darker outer webs to the outer primaries and a much vanted feature on individuals seen in W. Europe, especially. Ofte a contrast appears between outer and inner primaries. That is visible in James gull, but seems to involve all primaries, making no visible contrast. There are some variation in this feature - on some individuals pattern on outer primaries are identical to glaucoides. The strenght of dark outer webs are variable but also according to wear. The contrast between the folded wing and rest of upperparts is not so marked and the primaries have rather fine, slightly darker shaft streakes. On the underwing outer primaries look all palelooks all paleThe tail seems to lack markings appart from a slight pattern in the meddle t-feathers, and some kumlieni lack almost any markings on the tail. Put together, characters are more or less all in favour for kumlieni - perhaps except for the heavy bill and short p-projection. It should be noted that nort all have the expected long p-projection, but as short as in James gull is probly not in favour of Iceland Gull /glaucoides/kumlieniall. It would be nice to see a pread wing (wouldn´t it always)

JanJ

 

[J Jones]

In addition to things that don't fit with kumlieni Jan, surely structure also:

http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=177230&d=1232065139

Whilst it does look like a good imitator of the glaucoides complex, it seems far too stocky and stunted, almost entirely lacking any elegance that we would expect.

 

[JANJ]

In addition to things that don't fit with kumlieni Jan, surely structure also:

http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=177230&d=1232065139

Whilst it does look like a good imitator of the glaucoides complex, it seems far too stocky and stunted, almost entirely lacking any elegance that we would expect.

Sure.

JanJ

 

[nialltkeogh]

Niall,

It was at Castletown Bearhaven on 30th Dec (God knows why I put February in the previous posting); I deleted mine as they were taken with the camera only and all you could see was a blur (appalling light and blowing a gale). I will see if Rich still has his images of it (again, camera only) but they will at least provide some idea of scale (basically Iceland-like structure, smaller than Herring, long-winged etc).

I'd imagine it is probably still there; I know Castletown is relatively out of the way but it amazes me people don't get out there more often...!

Josh

Thanks Josh,

I've checked Rich's website but theres no sign of any pics there.
I'll e-mail him and see if he's still got them.

FYI, Dave McAdams checked the area on 13th Jan and had: 9 Icelands, a 1st-w Glauc, 1 Ring-bill and 3 Meds.

See ya,
Niall

 

[James Eaton]

On the underwing outer primaries look all palelooks all paleThe tail seems to lack markings appart from a slight pattern in the meddle t-feathers, and some kumlieni lack almost any markings on the tail. Put together, characters are more or less all in favour for kumlieni - perhaps except for the heavy bill and short p-projection. It should be noted that nort all have the expected long p-projection, but as short as in James gull is probly not in favour of Iceland Gull /glaucoides/kumlieniall. It would be nice to see a pread wing (wouldn´t it always)

JanJ

JanJ, you may have your wish come true, waiting to see the SLR shots taken from my mate, I think he got flight shots, will post them tomorrow if he managed it.

Interesting debate, though I can't help wondering how a Glaucous-winged x Glaucous hybrid could appear so much smaller than Slaty-backed, despite the ageing and sexing variabilities, especially with the small headed appearance...

 

[petemorris]

Hi James

I've seen several similar birds over the years in Hokkaido which I have assumed are Glaucous-winged x Glaucous (see attached example). Also an excellent array of other hybrids. Your bird does look very small, though the bill looks heavy, surely too heavy for Kumlien's and with a very strong gonydeal angle. That said, I have seen Kumlien's Gull near to Tokyo. How was your trip otherwise?

Pete

 

[petemorris]

As Josh points out above, barrovianus can be tiny, and I've seen presumed birds of this form on Hokkaido too. They really get you going and look like Iceland Gulls, though the mantle is a shade darker (on adults). A hybrid G-w x barrovianus could presumably be quite small. I've attached a few other Hokkaido hybrids for fun!

Pete

 

[James Eaton]

Hi Pete,

Great - thanks for the input, ok, I'm starting to be persuaded on the hybrid theory. Dan Brown also photographed a similar example near to Rausu.

Trip was excellent otherwise - 2 cock Copper Pheasants flying straight for the windscreen, swerving of to perch in a roadside tree was quite mega, though it was so mild with little snow that we missed out completely on the waxwings and auklets and pack-ice eagles photos, it never got below -3 on Hokkaido.
Obviously the Blakiston's stole the show, along with Ural Owl, Pine Grosbeak, Jap, Ancient and Long-billed Murrlets, Providence Petrels, cranes (though seeing 1500 the week before in China took the gloss off 2 at Arasaki) and a stunning Short-tailed Albatross though not enough time to jump off the jump at Hachijo. For the Asia list I guess the Bufflehead would be a bit of a mega!

Cheers,

James