lou salomon
the birdonist
howard, do you have some barabensis "faces" - where bill can be studied etc.? i'd like to know more about variation in steppe gull.
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lou salomon
the birdonist
herastrau again
from a thread by cr.mihai (the author of pics).
seen like through bins. high number of pure guessing o
ok the first 7 for my eyes:
1. mich ad fem
2. mich 1st
3. cach ad?
4. classic cach 1st but with well marked scaps
5. short legs and hanging bum? could be everything, hg, ylg, but prob.casp.?
6. ? darkish tertials with wide crescents - a 3cy?
7. 2nd cycle michahellis (on head)
who wants to go on? there are some striking birds in there.
from a thread by cr.mihai (the author of pics).
seen like through bins. high number of pure guessing o
ok the first 7 for my eyes:
1. mich ad fem
2. mich 1st
3. cach ad?
4. classic cach 1st but with well marked scaps
5. short legs and hanging bum? could be everything, hg, ylg, but prob.casp.?
6. ? darkish tertials with wide crescents - a 3cy?
7. 2nd cycle michahellis (on head)
who wants to go on? there are some striking birds in there.
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AStevenson
Well-known member
Gentoos in 278, 1.Ad Calif, 2. juv/1st cycle Glauc winged or poss some western in there, 3&4 1st cycle Calif, 5. Hmmmm, prob hiybrid but maybe pure western?
As for 282 - run away now!!!!
Cheers
Andrew
As for 282 - run away now!!!!
Cheers
Andrew
Howard King
Guest
A Yes and no - the no being for younger birds there is always that element of doubt as to ID
lou salomon
the birdonist
8. cach 2nd
9. ?
10. cach
11. ?; are these 2 ind? preening, anything visible in the wingtip?
12. prob. cach
13. mich 2nd (definitely!)
14. prob. mich
15. cach
16. mich 1st
17. a cachellis with a canus-head :eat:
18. male mich 1st, outstanding in its dark and but used plumage
19. poss. cach 1st
20. mich? 1st
21. mich ad
22. poss. cach?
23. mich ad
24. cach! 1st
25. mich 1st
26. mich? - this one has a mantle shade matching canus (heinei), even a light coloured graellsii - or a dark mich
27. mich 3rd?, lets say this is an armenicus as no. 1 would be barabensis :-O
9. ?
10. cach
11. ?; are these 2 ind? preening, anything visible in the wingtip?
12. prob. cach
13. mich 2nd (definitely!)
14. prob. mich
15. cach
16. mich 1st
17. a cachellis with a canus-head :eat:
18. male mich 1st, outstanding in its dark and but used plumage
19. poss. cach 1st
20. mich? 1st
21. mich ad
22. poss. cach?
23. mich ad
24. cach! 1st
25. mich 1st
26. mich? - this one has a mantle shade matching canus (heinei), even a light coloured graellsii - or a dark mich
27. mich 3rd?, lets say this is an armenicus
as no. 1 would be barabensis :-O
Cristian Mihai
Cristian Mihai
from a thread by cr.mihai (the author of pics).
seen like through bins. high number of pure guessing o
ok the first 7 for my eyes:
1. mich ad fem
2. mich 1st
3. cach ad?
4. classic cach 1st but with well marked scaps
5. short legs and hanging bum? could be everything, hg, ylg, but prob.casp.?
6. ? darkish tertials with wide crescents - a 3cy?
7. 2nd cycle michahellis (on head)
who wants to go on? there are some striking birds in there.
Lou, I would say that 3. it is a Common Gull.
lou salomon
the birdonist
it looks too long-legged fo CG - see the one on the right of nr.5, which of course is a canus. see the hunched caspian 24 which isn't bigger but has almost the same posture. it seems there was quite some wind?
it may look like consuming attitude to go over so many ind. in a so undifferenciated way, but it is an exercise also and that's why i posted my suggested answers in advance. now if you like to compare and disagree..- most of them are not id-able with certainty but ~25% of them are.
my suggestions for the 32 marked ind. in pic 2, totally there are more than 70 gulls in the pic, the majority are caspians, bold marked some ind. that are worth having a closer look (or at least to have a look at
1. cach 2cy
2. mich? 2cy
3. cach? 4cy? - are there tail markings?
4. cach? (bicoloured gr. covert pattern)
5. mich? although not much visible it seems to be very dark, possibly 3cy due to wide tertial crescents
6. mich? 3cy
7. cach? 2cy
8. mich? ad
9. cach ad very small, fem type
10. cach ad mantle looks lighter than 9
11. cach 3cy - looks "high heeled", stiltish
12. mich? 2cy there's this strange red-brown surface at the wingbend, what is that?
13. cach 3cy (open wing). that light point in the outer wing looks perfect for a p10-mirror on setting. it is 2nd winter because of that mirror and the much paler inner primary window (extending on both webs), although in the whole wing there aren't any ad type grey feathers. also there are long pale tongues on inner webs in the dark outer primaries - which michahellis doesn't have so extended.
14. cach 2cy but could be mich (most 1st cycle michs have rather worn and thus plain greater coverts now)
15. cach 2cy(?) large and leggy, greyish scaps but tertials look 1st gen.
16. (twice) the ad one is square headed but could be both cach or mich
16. mich? 2cy dark head, well marked scaps
17. cach 2cy, look at those stilts. whole row of median coverts looks renewed.
18. cach 3cy
19. mich 2cy - this is the conspicous very dark ind. discussed in pic1!
20. cach? 2cy looks like casp but could well be a mich with pale underwing! threatening pose better for michahellis?
20. cach ad - twice again, this one is very strange, it has a really fat hanging bum but more in the middle (between legs), triangular head, all good for caspian but also it looks short winged!
21. cach? ad?
22.-24. nothing to see well
25., 26. and 27. look like adult michahellis (yellow legs, dark mantle); 27. is the dark mantled bird discussed in pic 1, darker than the rest of the ad gulls.
28. also prob. ad michahellis
29. cach/mich ad (prob. cach)
30. cach/mich 3cy?
31. leaning against the wind.., looks like mich
32. mich? 2cy
and the pic again for control. taken 8th febr. 08 in herastrau park, bucharest (cr. mihai)
it may look like consuming attitude to go over so many ind. in a so undifferenciated way, but it is an exercise also and that's why i posted my suggested answers in advance. now if you like to compare and disagree..- most of them are not id-able with certainty but ~25% of them are.
my suggestions for the 32 marked ind. in pic 2, totally there are more than 70 gulls in the pic, the majority are caspians, bold marked some ind. that are worth having a closer look (or at least to have a look at
1. cach 2cy
2. mich? 2cy
3. cach? 4cy? - are there tail markings?
4. cach? (bicoloured gr. covert pattern)
5. mich? although not much visible it seems to be very dark, possibly 3cy due to wide tertial crescents
6. mich? 3cy
7. cach? 2cy
8. mich? ad
9. cach ad very small, fem type
10. cach ad mantle looks lighter than 9
11. cach 3cy - looks "high heeled", stiltish
12. mich? 2cy there's this strange red-brown surface at the wingbend, what is that?
13. cach 3cy (open wing). that light point in the outer wing looks perfect for a p10-mirror on setting. it is 2nd winter because of that mirror and the much paler inner primary window (extending on both webs), although in the whole wing there aren't any ad type grey feathers. also there are long pale tongues on inner webs in the dark outer primaries - which michahellis doesn't have so extended.
14. cach 2cy but could be mich (most 1st cycle michs have rather worn and thus plain greater coverts now)
15. cach 2cy(?) large and leggy, greyish scaps but tertials look 1st gen.
16. (twice) the ad one is square headed but could be both cach or mich
16. mich? 2cy dark head, well marked scaps
17. cach 2cy, look at those stilts. whole row of median coverts looks renewed.
18. cach 3cy
19. mich 2cy - this is the conspicous very dark ind. discussed in pic1!
20. cach? 2cy looks like casp but could well be a mich with pale underwing! threatening pose better for michahellis?
20. cach ad - twice again, this one is very strange, it has a really fat hanging bum but more in the middle (between legs), triangular head, all good for caspian but also it looks short winged!
21. cach? ad?
22.-24. nothing to see well
25., 26. and 27. look like adult michahellis (yellow legs, dark mantle); 27. is the dark mantled bird discussed in pic 1, darker than the rest of the ad gulls.
28. also prob. ad michahellis
29. cach/mich ad (prob. cach)
30. cach/mich 3cy?
31. leaning against the wind.., looks like mich
32. mich? 2cy
and the pic again for control. taken 8th febr. 08 in herastrau park, bucharest (cr. mihai)
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lou salomon
the birdonist
did i mess up everyones apetite? :-O:gh
Howard King
Guest
Lou I found it hard to concentrate on the picture - eyes are fading -- old age thats my excuse - anyhow can't post any current pics at the moment my lens is jammed got some of our dust (sand) inside - will sort through some of the older pictures I have in the meantime while its in the workshop.
lou salomon
the birdonist
indeed it may be an imposition but it's the way you look at a distant resting flock...i'm gonna look for greater resolution pics... and for the old theme YLG versus caspian we have 2 excellent recent threads on identification q&a.
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=107321
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=107376
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=107321
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=107376
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lou salomon
the birdonist
lou salomon
the birdonist
thayeri ad
glaucescens x occidentalis 1st cycle
californicus 2cy
smithsonianus 2cy
occidentalis (nominate)
glaucescens x occidentalis 1st cycle
californicus 2cy
smithsonianus 2cy
occidentalis (nominate)
Gentoo
Guest
AStevenson
Well-known member
293 - Gentoos unIDed
1 & 2 Glauc-winged
5 if not occidentalis must be wymani!
Cheers
A
1 & 2 Glauc-winged
5 if not occidentalis must be wymani!
Cheers
A
lou salomon
the birdonist
obviously for no 5 there aren't any other options left.
#2 i thought had too dark primary tips to be a pure GWG, maybe a "nelson's"?
#1 GWG then. does smith have such pink legs?
#2 i thought had too dark primary tips to be a pure GWG, maybe a "nelson's"?
#1 GWG then. does smith have such pink legs?
Gentoo
Guest
Good guesses:
No, smiths are like argentatus and argeteus in leg color. This GWG, has always had brighter pink legs than most I've seen. I think this may indicate Siberian origin and this bird, although usually silent, and a long call that fits Sibley's description. I just thought it would be interesting seeing what you all thought.
The 1st winter GWG is a pure bird.
The Western is wymani.
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lou salomon
the birdonist
http://www.suesbirdphotos.co.uk/HERRINGGULL.htm (2nd pic)
this 3rd winter type argenteus(?) herring gull has p5-7 with large white tips and p8-10 without: does that mean that the outer 3 primaries are 2nd generation and the rest 3rd? what kind of moult schedule does this represent??? edit: it's just my lack of experience - surely they are all 2nd generation and inner primaries are as in other large gulls already white tipped while the outer aren't. :eat:
concerning michahellis: http://www.tarsiger.com/images/seimola/2DSC_8108Larmic.jpg
jan has posted this as having an unusually thin subterrminal band on p5, same goes with this bird, pic from cristian (14.2.08). are those grey stripes inside the black tips of p9 and 10 just shaft streaks? and is the inner web of p10 not supposed to be all black or at least more of it? could there be some cachi influence?
this 3rd winter type argenteus(?) herring gull has p5-7 with large white tips and p8-10 without: does that mean that the outer 3 primaries are 2nd generation and the rest 3rd? what kind of moult schedule does this represent??? edit: it's just my lack of experience - surely they are all 2nd generation and inner primaries are as in other large gulls already white tipped while the outer aren't. :eat:
concerning michahellis: http://www.tarsiger.com/images/seimola/2DSC_8108Larmic.jpg
jan has posted this as having an unusually thin subterrminal band on p5, same goes with this bird, pic from cristian (14.2.08). are those grey stripes inside the black tips of p9 and 10 just shaft streaks? and is the inner web of p10 not supposed to be all black or at least more of it? could there be some cachi influence?
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JANJ
Well-known member
Helo Lou.
I would say that Sue,s Herring Gull has renewed all it´s primaries and the pattern on the inner tips contra outers is age related like in these ones here:
http://www.gull-research.org/ylgadsubad/3cyoct/micha6699.htm
http://www.gull-research.org/ylgadsubad/3cyoct/micha5389.htm
Another possibility is that inner primaries are more protected when wings are folded compared tro the outers - which because of there position therefore are more prone to wear.
On Sue´s Herring - where all primaries would be recently moulted the wear explanation is of less importance.
You are right about the grey shafts on the YLG but I can´t say for sure if this is a sign of influence of another gull.
A gap there on Cristians bird between p-coverts and inner web of p10, yes but I can not say if it´s some kind of influence of - either Caspian or any other species.
http://www.ornitho.ch/index.php?m_id=54&mid=28479
http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=103184
http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=76395
http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.php?actie=foto&cat=1&subcat=1&subcatsub=222
http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.php?actie=foto&cat=1&subcat=1&subcatsub=111
Check these?
http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/greece05.html
http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/greece04.html
JanJ
JanJ
I would say that Sue,s Herring Gull has renewed all it´s primaries and the pattern on the inner tips contra outers is age related like in these ones here:
http://www.gull-research.org/ylgadsubad/3cyoct/micha6699.htm
http://www.gull-research.org/ylgadsubad/3cyoct/micha5389.htm
Another possibility is that inner primaries are more protected when wings are folded compared tro the outers - which because of there position therefore are more prone to wear.
On Sue´s Herring - where all primaries would be recently moulted the wear explanation is of less importance.
You are right about the grey shafts on the YLG but I can´t say for sure if this is a sign of influence of another gull.
A gap there on Cristians bird between p-coverts and inner web of p10, yes but I can not say if it´s some kind of influence of - either Caspian or any other species.
http://www.ornitho.ch/index.php?m_id=54&mid=28479
http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=103184
http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=76395
http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.php?actie=foto&cat=1&subcat=1&subcatsub=222
http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.php?actie=foto&cat=1&subcat=1&subcatsub=111
Check these?
http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/greece05.html
http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/greece04.html
JanJ
JanJ
