gulls (1 Viewer)

[lou salomon]

this one is incredibly early in moult isn't it? moulted most coverts & even tail already in october 1cy!

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/greece03.html

and is this a retarded 3cy?

http://www.surfbird.de/fotos/steppenmoewe17.jpg

ok, and to go on with some guesses, here's a batch of tails for you.

 

[lou salomon]

http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=180361

isn't this rather an eastern cachinnans/barabensis than a michahellis?!

http://www.pbase.com/clive_temple/image/69490913 one more weirdo (what a bill, strong legs and pale iris in a subadult - eastern casp?)

 

[JANJ]

Certainly not a Yellow-legged Lou, more like eastern Caspian or barabensis.
Perhaps dark mark on p4 indicate barabensis.

JanJ

 

[JANJ]

The Caspian Gull from Germany seem to be a 3cy (taken in Feb.). The rounded primary tips - in one wing - difficult to judge and trust in some images this character.
Innermost primaries with dark shaft s only. To toned bill and grey upper mantle.

This 1cy from Finland taken in Sept. is quite similar except for bill colour - which would be kind of natural since approx. five months younger:

http://www.bongariliitto.fi/kuvat/1.../larcac_20040926_tamper_rauvi/C_IMG_55134.jpg

2cy end of June:

http://www.bongariliitto.fi/kuvat/11_Rantalinnut/11h_Lokit/larcac_20050626_tamper_kosha/IMG_4390.jpg

http://www.bongariliitto.fi/kuvat/11_Rantalinnut/11h_Lokit/larcac_20050626_tamper_kosha/IMG_4393.jpg

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

http://www.bongariliitto.fi/kuvat/11..._IMG_55134.jpg
17 months younger than the 3cy february german caspian - quite some differences. many 3cy look more advanced in upperpart coloration (ad grey coverts, scapulars), but of course some still look like herring gull 2nd winter.

nobody fancy trying those tails?

 

[lou salomon]

#301 is still open for answers.
and this:

 

[lou salomon]

dubious 2cy?

sorry for this old topic

:smoke::smoke::smoke:

new bird

 

[JANJ]

Hello Lou.

Post 306 is the one I´m wating for to appear at Ottenby! ichthyaetus, in this case a juvenile/1st winter, and so is the looks of the wing tip. Stockier than Common Gull.

The three images in 307 - all YLG,s. The upper one in image 1 3cy type, growing adult type medians.

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

there will come the time for it, jan, it has become a regular guest (and winter visitor) in the dobroudja (= the land between danube and the black sea coast in romania) these days, a wonderfull sight these gigantic black heads!

http://www.clanga.com/images/full/pl_okno.php?zdj=P1717.JPG
http://www.clanga.com/images/full/pl_okno.php?zdj=P1716.JPG

the grey-backed YLG in #307 for me has some caspian features but nonetheless a YLG with that bulbous bill: dark shaft streaks on light grey upper scaps, large pale bill base (early for YLG), whitish head and smallish looking eye but not really like classic cachinnans.

since nobody else is trying on those tails (#301), you're allowed to do so, jan

 

[lou salomon]

givin' up

tail solutions:

1. michahellis 1cy, 5.8.2007, romania, j.szabo (see attached)
2. smithsonianus 2nd winter (can't find the link anymore, by st. duffield, see attached)
3. fuscus fuscus 1cy, october 2007, romania, j.szabo
4. http://www.tarsiger.com/images/linto/LarargKI6W4135.jpg
5. http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=17969

 

[lou salomon]

what do think, doesn't this caspian gull have a bit more black in wingtip than usual? some michahellis come close if not even with the same amount of black, except that p9-mirror wouldn't be so large.
romania, 23.02.2008, foto by cosmin manci.

 

[Gentoo]

I figure since this thread is a discussion for the gull experts, I would take a slightly different turn here and discuss possible future identification problems caused by Lesser Black Backed Gulls in Alaska during the breeding season. In the link below, there are several pictures of LBBG, one in the link on that site describes two birds as a LBBG Herring Gull pair. In another one, you can see one with a Glaucous-Winged Gull although it doesn't state whether or not they're a pair. Now where else is this species occurring and possibly pairing with other species? Is LBBG x Western Gull possible? Remember the bird in the ID thread from Nevada that none of us could really identify but it looked like it could be intermediate between LBBG and WEGU?

Here's the link:

http://home.bway.net/lewis/birds/alaska.html

thoughts?

 

[JANJ]

Hello Lou.

Com,pare them with this one and note the shorter grey tongues of your bird - p9 % 8.

http://www.artportalen.se/artportalen/gallery/Image.aspx?rappsyst=1&obsid=7769652&imageID=25069

http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/73120047

http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/71871287

http://www.ornitho.ch/index.php?m_id=54&mid=31814

http://www.ornitho.ch/index.php?m_id=54&mid=30050

http://www.ornitho.ch/index.php?m_id=54&mid=15195

Either acceptable as variation for Caspian or eastern origin. More black in barabensis, usually, but we shall be very careful with these two since there´s not much established knowledge, yet. When and where doe´s so called eastern Caspians resembles type where from barabensis?
and what to call them and so on. Your gulls Lou I have no problems calling Caspians, wing tip style I have seen even in Sweden and else where more east.

Israel:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/80061854/sizes/o/

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

i didn't have any trouble calling it even a 'ponticus', just wanted to know if you also find that black band on p7 - (inner web) p10 broader than usual? a really eastern caspian i'd expect to show a clear subterminal band on p10 and black down to p4, and even more black on p7-10. and that a few michahellis have quite a similar amount of black (but with smaller tongue on p10).

 

[lou salomon]

hi gentoo,

i've been looking through those proposed alaskan LBBGs already some time ago, on most of which i wouldn't like to give a positive id statement. firstly i have too little experience with graellsii LBBG, secondly i haven't seen any of those hybrids, apparently in england LBBG x HG isn't too rare. i recall LBBG also has mated with YLG. graellsii is highly variable too (mantle shade, structure, primary pattern) and adults often not reliably separable from heuglini. however, none of the alaskan birds give the impression of the caspian-like structure of (western) heuglini.

1. has black markings along shaft on primary coverts, often found in the inner asian taxa, but i think LBBG can have it too (rarer). wing pattern is ok for graellsii.

2. looks best for graellsii - i'd say this really is a LBBG with that small round head and red on gonys bleeding into upper mandible.

3. well, surely not a slaty-backed but weather graellsii or heuglini/taimyrensis?

4. small resolution, not much to see here, but compared to the HG it looks small, probably a female LBBG.

6. this could well be a taimyrensis but i've never seen one. or LBBG

7. would have liked a spread wing. looks dark (almost intermedius), but poss. due to bad light. pale iris looks like LBBG but variably in north siberian taxa too. don't know.

 

[lou salomon]

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/thassos02.html

surely you know this strange ind. is it an oddly retarded 2cy ??? (october!) inner primaries and tail pattern would indicate this. then scapulars are pretty unusual as none of them is pure grey. first time i saw it i thought it was a 1st winter!

 

[ody]

I think I have two Larus Michahelis here.What age?

 

[Gentoo]

I think I have two Larus Michahelis here.What age?

I would say most likely 2nd cycle birds, or what some may say worn or late first winter. I don't like that term much but basically first spring I would say. The body plumage seems to have gotten pale and it looks like there is some wear on the wing coverts.

 

[Gentoo]

hi gentoo,

i've been looking through those proposed alaskan LBBGs already some time ago, on most of which i wouldn't like to give a positive id statement. firstly i have too little experience with graellsii LBBG, secondly i haven't seen any of those hybrids, apparently in england LBBG x HG isn't too rare. i recall LBBG also has mated with YLG. graellsii is highly variable too (mantle shade, structure, primary pattern) and adults often not reliably separable from heuglini. however, none of the alaskan birds give the impression of the caspian-like structure of (western) heuglini.

1. has black markings along shaft on primary coverts, often found in the inner asian taxa, but i think LBBG can have it too (rarer). wing pattern is ok for graellsii.

2. looks best for graellsii - i'd say this really is a LBBG with that small round head and red on gonys bleeding into upper mandible.

3. well, surely not a slaty-backed but weather graellsii or heuglini/taimyrensis?

4. small resolution, not much to see here, but compared to the HG it looks small, probably a female LBBG.

6. this could well be a taimyrensis but i've never seen one. or LBBG

7. would have liked a spread wing. looks dark (almost intermedius), but poss. due to bad light. pale iris looks like LBBG but variably in north siberian taxa too. don't know.

I'm glad I posted this here because as usual, I never considered those Asian taxa. They're always out of mind for me. I agree that LBBG can be confusing birds even to those who are familiar with them. I agree that none of these are Slaty-Backed which is the dark backed gull one would expect in Alaska. I guess heuglini shouldn't be rules out completely like you said as they usually cannot be too reliably seperated unless in their normal range. If so however, it would still go down as a LBBG as the AUO considers heuglini conspecific with LBBG. I don't know enough about heuglini to have an opinion on that.

I would think that tamyariensis would be noticeably paler, being closer to Vega or California Gulls.

 

[lou salomon]

it would still go down as a LBBG as the AUO considers heuglini conspecific with LBBG. I don't know enough about heuglini to have an opinion on that.

I would think that tamyariensis would be noticeably paler, being closer to Vega or California Gulls.

heuglini is closely related to LBBG but not as much as the other taxa: graellsii, intermedius and fuscus are genetically very close to each other while there is a marked step / gene flow barrier towards heuglini/taimyrensis (a. helbig et others). so LBBG and siberian gull are better described as a superspecies. the proposed range of taimyrensis (more or less stable hybrid with vega?) is huge and i'd expect this taxon to show up more often in N america. mantle shade about that of california gull i guess.
no. 6 of the alaskan birds looks pale on my screen.