gulls (1 Viewer)

[lou salomon]

2. woops, a 2nd winter/summer herring then (well, it's not a thayer's so only herring is left)

 

[Gentoo]

2. woops, a 2nd winter/summer herring then (well, it's not a thayer's so only herring is left)

Close enough, it was generally identified as a Herring x Glaucous-Winged hybrid.

 

[lou salomon]

herring gull by graham with red orbital ring (does the majority of argentatus in the baltic sea have red orbitals, jan?)

http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=189303

and this one looks very interesting!: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=112225

and this YLG by delfin gonzales, taken in september 2006 (yesterday posted on birdinggulls - btw. jan, do you think that is definitely a GBBG, madrid landfill, from gabi?) - quite strange white patched GC and broad white fringed tertials!?

 

[lou salomon]

1.) 17.05.2004 j.szabo sen., vadu - a 3cy, not sure if cachi or micha (have it in my unsolved pics) - probably not safely identifyable

2.) 21.04.2008 cr. mihai, bucharest - 2cy michahellis i think. right? (2 pics)

3.) look at that gonys "hook" (breeding bird, bucharest pajura)

 

[JANJ]

Hi Lou (how´s life?)

The majority of baltic argentatus doe´s not have red orbital ring, most often those with yellow/yellowish legs with red to orange-red orbital ring.

It´s amazing how similar some YLG are to GBBG, because I think it´s a YLG - a big male.
Remains to decide which age? Could it be a retarded 2cy YLG or a 1cy with advanced moult, renewed tertials - but greater coverts looks a bit odd for both 1cy and 2cy (some variation in 1cy), (1cy if a GBBG). Difficult to see the primary tips, but p-projection looks better for YLG and the limited view of the tail seems better for YLG as there seems to be much dark there.

Known aged:

http://www.mallorcaweb.net/gavines/edat gavines_conjunt.htm

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

well jan, i think there came up some confusion. the YLG by delfin gonzales that i posted in #403 is definitely a YLG i think (long legs, long wings!) but it has a very unusual plumage, that's why i showed it: GCs and tertials are odd. though i think it might be labelled correct as 1cy (scapulars look like 1st winter scaps to me) and i also think those tertials could be 1st gen but very broad fringed with white?

the gull which was in question for GBBG was the one from vuelpepiedras (=gabi) from the same place with an even more heavy bill! didn't you read the birdinggulls mails? ok i've copied the pics here:

 

[JANJ]

Okey Lou, got the message.

I have in fact seen these three images of the GBBG. - which with a bill like that = the shape of it (broad-tipped) ? head shape with the high placed smallish eye in my view is a GBBG.

I agree that nr 2 and 3 in post 404 is michahellis. Regarding nr 1 - probably michahellis on structure.
Nr 4 surely a michahellis.

A nice presumed heuglini:

http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/SubadHeuglin's_Tara20080420.html

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

structurally hannu's heuglini looks much better than the polish bird in my opinion. http://avestom.com/fotonotes_en.htm

 

[JANJ]

Again some interesting gulls, you have seen these Lou, some of them easier than others, the presumed heuglinis are interesting and location would be better for heuglini than graellsii, but on the other hand, as gulls travels you never know. The ID problematics concerning graellsii and heuglini is still 'almost impossible to separate for sure'.

http://www.gullsofcrete.blogspot.com/

http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/Presumedadultheuglinis_Tara2008.html

http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/4cyLBBGHelgoland_20070721.html

Finland 23.7. Note moult score:

http://www.bongariliitto.fi/kuvat/1...larfus_20070723_tamper5_hytpe/23.7.07_5_1.jpg

Same date and place as above, but another individual:

http://www.bongariliitto.fi/kuvat/1...larfus_20070723_tamper1_hytpe/23.7.07_1_3.jpg

If I saw this one standing at Ottenby end of Oct. I would probably pass it of as graellsii, a rather good find at that place anyway. But if seen like this:

http://www.pbase.com/dophoto/image/89737855

I would immediately speculate in a presumed heuglini simply due to it´s moult score, p 1-3 renewed (late Oct). Could I however exclude a late moulting graellsii? Probably not.
So therefore I would probably have to leave it unidentified. The Polish bird could by structure (even with the red on upper mandible), from this image be either graellsii or heuglini!

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

http://www.forumromanum.de/member/f...3576280&USER=user_70085&threadid=2&onsearch=1

wolfgang has a strange method to id: bill proportions 1:4 says cachinnans! i'm not convinced.

 

[AStevenson]

Any thoughts on this one from today on South uist sorry about the lighting the bird was just in the wriong place.

Initially looked like it could be small GBB at a distance but closer inspection casts some doubt - herring or yellow-legged?

Cheers,
Andrew

 

[lou salomon]

that's a herring gull, andrew.
strongly patterned upper tail with wide terminal band would be very unusual for both GBBG/YLG, pale brown primaries (even if faded, on average darker in YLG), primary window not easy to see due to overall faded remiges and gr. covert pattern is typical herring. also i think it is compact enough.

cheers,

 

[AStevenson]

Ta Lou, thought it was probably just herring looking a bit YL - was less convinced any chance of YL once it flew, tail band too broad and upper tail/rump area too marked.

We get a few of these every year, any thoughts as to whether they are more likely argentatus than argenteus(Jan?) or just within the bewildering range of herring plumages.

Cheers,
Andrew

 

[JANJ]

Hi Andreew.
A Lou say´s - your gull is a fairly typical (if now the word typical can be used for gulls) 2cy Hering Gull.
In general argentatus and argenteus is difficult, if not impossible to identify as to ssp in the age group your gull belongs to. Wear and moult scedule sometimes differ, northern argentatus moults later than argentatus, but a northern British argenteus might well moult later than a southern Scandinavian argentatus and so on. mportant to note the sexual differences in gulls - males in general being larger and bigger-billed.

Check here:

http://www.gull-research.org/hg/HG2CY04.htm

and compare here:

http://www.gull-research.org/ylg1cy2cy/2cyapr/02cyapr.htm

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

http://www.forumromanum.de/member/f...3576280&USER=user_70085&threadid=2&onsearch=1
looks big headed and eyed. still a cachinnans or is it hard to say at this time? i can't really get a grip of it, but i think it is a YLG.

this ad michahellis has really extended black in outer primaries (the ones i saw at upper rhine valley and at bodensee also looked similar, romanian YLGs usually with less black except for a few). do i count 11 primaries in left wing or is p3 spread a lot?
http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=192055

 

[JANJ]

Hi Lou.

You don´t get so much Caspian jizz on the one you linked twice here.
It´s anyway most probably not a Herring Gull - moult in coverts (as a 2cy). long legs, which by the way don´t look especially slender (tibia) and scapular pattern. However scapular pattern would fit a Caspian together with the rather less worn state compared to many 2cy YLG at this time of year, many first generation coverts except a few inner lesser and median 2nd generation coverts. Juvenile, fairly fresh, tertails has the pattern of Caspian and so doe´s the dark outer lesser, median and greater coverts - forming a dark outer edge.
Not an easy choice.

This one may not be that easier, or what. Note the pattern of the primaries and p5, the red orbital ring - which is quite broad in front of the eye, signals YLG. Appears to be short-winged and the quiestion is - is it so different from an argentatus, or is the impression of a YLG caused by the stongly yellow legs and primary pattern?

http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/Mica_lookalike_Tara20080412.html

apparently the same here, and slightly more convincing. Compare with argentatus in Visa Raustes images:

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/hannu28.html

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/erbil/images/detail/#522/kapkacmartiuz1.gif

have a look at this smart bird!

 

[JANJ]

Nothing happens in my computer Lou when I click on your last link.

This one in connection with the one in 416

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.php?actie=foto&cat=1&subcat=1&subcatsub=319#bottom

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

Hi Lou.

This one may not be that easier, or what. Note the pattern of the primaries and p5, the red orbital ring - which is quite broad in front of the eye, signals YLG. Appears to be short-winged and the quiestion is - is it so different from an argentatus, or is the impression of a YLG caused by the stongly yellow legs and primary pattern?

http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/Mica_lookalike_Tara20080412.html

apparently the same here, and slightly more convincing. Compare with argentatus in Visa Raustes images:

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/hannu28.html

JanJ

hej,

to me this looks like an almost perfect michahellis, don't see the wing projection as being too short for YLG. i have not seen any argentatus(!) HG (photo) with that extended black in outer wing, especially such thick p5 subterminal band. red skin in front of the eye and bill shape (well, with more red on upper mandible would be nice) are ok, gape colour could be even deeper red in a classic YLG, but i think YLG must be involved here, perhaps a hybrid then.

 

[lou salomon]

http://profile.imageshack.us/user/erbil/images/detail/#522/kapkacmartiuz1.gif

have a look at this smart bird!

http://img522.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kapkacmartiuz1.gif

does it work now?