gulls (1 Viewer)

[lou salomon]

hi howard,

nice to see you posting here again. well, the species pair eastern cachinnans versus barabensis keeps being one of the hardest problems in your region. in all pics mantle shade is not a usefull matter (no comparison, counterlight). looks like all birds are of the same species and i tend to say they are 4cy barabensis, dull yellow legs not bright as in adult, small white primary tips in the first bird, none seen in 3-4 but it's the underside of primaries. some dark subterminal smudges on bill, bills not as long as one would expect in a typical cachinnans. although in the flying bird, pic 2 the primary pattern may suggest an eastern cachinnans with less black on p7 than the average barabensis. very upright stance in the last 2 birds is typical barabensis, but surely cachinnans stands similarly and the legs of the lefthand bird are quite long! not a clear statement from my side i fear, let's see what jan says.
http://www.geocities.com/birdsnap/barabensis_subadult.htm

i love pics of greater black headed!

 

[Howard King]

Hi Lou I have had camera problems - still not resolved completely - the repair shop here is cr___p

I was going to put cachinnans for all of them but just wasn't quite happy with that hence my opt out by posting here

 

[JANJ]

Hi H & L.

I tend to agree that all of these gulls are Steppe Gull (barabensis). In the flying bird the primary pattern - both above and under and the dark underside of the primary bases and secondaries would indicate Steppe over Caspian - which has paler underside of flight feathers, but how reliable this difference in underwing is I´m not so certain about.

The so called eastern Caspian Gull might confuse matters since some are darker and with more black on primaries - but still with somehow a 'Caspian look'. However one should be aware of the difficulties concering these taxa - the ID roblematics should not be taken lightly!

Some examples, from Israel:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/93886921/sizes/o/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/93886658/sizes/o/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/93887128/sizes/o/

If you are unsure of the first one in the upper three images of the same gull, you will get the answer in the last image where the underside of p10 is visible, along with some other features.

The one below might not be to difficult - leg colour and underside of p10 pattern signals Caspian, bit what about the structure and shape of the head together with bill size?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/93884030/sizes/o/

Wing pattern:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/80061854/sizes/o/

Probably all four Steppe, note the flatish back of the second upper individual:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/80064331/sizes/o/

http://www.deanar.btinternet.co.uk/Kazakh08/steppegulls.htm

http://www.pbase.com/dophoto/gabbianodelcaspio

http://www.tommypedersen.com/UAE-Steppe Gull.htm

again:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=110811

JanJ

 

[Howard King]

Thanks lou - JanJ

This next group sent to me at the same time as the previous

I have put down as Steppe Gull (barabensis) for birds in pic 1 and 2

for pic 3 & 4 (same birds) not really certain - but bird on left I thought was Caspian then steppe gull I had for the center bird -- bird to the right don't know

 

[JANJ]

Hi Howard.

Again a tentative id - Steppe/Caspian. The first one looks non adult due to the darkarkings on the bill, however - what can be seen of the plumage and primary pattern it looks adult like. Bare parts are dull - perhaps due to early season but also accordingly a feature of Caspian together with the bill size. The other gulls also look adult like and the rather bright yellow bills with dark markings might suggest Steppe over Caspian, but note the leg colour. Put together, not that it might solve the problem, but the wing pattern might lead us ahead. There can be little doubt that the one shown here:

http://www.tommypedersen.com/2008.02.22 - Kalba Tip - SteppeGull1.jpg

with dark markings on 9 primaries is most probably not a Caspian but more likely a Steppe, as also suggested.
Also note A. R. Deans article linked above.

The dark looking gull at the right in the two images with it´s long wing probably belongs to the fuscus/heuglini group, but whether a pale Baltic fuscus or heuglni I can´t say for sure, but perhaps more likely a female (size) heuglini.

JanJ

 

[Howard King]

Hi Janj - many thanks

Read the article but its a shame the photographs aren't of a better quality - its very difficult to relate text to picture and see features mentioned.

on the
http://www.tommypedersen.com/UAE-Steppe Gull.htm

the bird identified on

Kalba Corniche, 17.01.2008 - 2nd winter.

personally felt that this one was out of place

 

[JANJ]

Out of place - in what way do you mean Howard, it´s identity or what´s written underneath?

The second winter suggestion for that gull is probably right, that is to say a 3cy. Note the lack of white p-tips and mirror, brownish marking in the tertials and bill colour suggesting the age. The extensive moult - all grey coverts and scapulars with just a hint of brownish markings is perhaps a good indication for Steppe over Caspian, but variation is huge!

http://www.geocities.com/birdsnap/barabensis2win.htm

http://www.geocities.com/birdsnap/barabensissubadwin.htm

The section suggesting that 'a Caspian should have mainly unmoulted greater and lesser coverts, while a 3rd winter should have adult like primaries with white tips' might seem bewildering but the meaning is probably that a 2nd winter (3cy) Caspian at this time is less advanced regarding moult and would have more brownish marked greater coverts and scapulars compared to - at least the gull in question (which is most probably a Steppe Gull).

http://www.pbase.com/slisch/image/81938717

http://www.pbase.com/slisch/image/96672044

JanJ

 

[Howard King]

Out of place - in what way do you mean Howard, it´s identity or what´s written underneath?

JanJ

what´s written underneath? - found it very confusing picture and text seemed to contradict each other.

 

[lou salomon]

hello all,

jan,

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/93887128/sizes/o/

large tongue on p10 looks even good for a western caspian (but variable) and the flight pattern in this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/80061854/sizes/o/ also seems to suggest a ponticus.

one below might not be to difficult - leg colour and underside of p10 pattern signals Caspian, bit what about the structure and shape of the head together with bill size?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/93884030/sizes/o/

to me this looks very typical caspian - even bill shape, for a female type. the steeper forehead is just a position/mood thing.

the ad barabensis types are more confusing though some seem to be straightforward. the intermediate character in the (possible?) contact zone is sth. found over large parts of the continent, also north - south between cachinnans and argentatus, clinal in argentatus and argenteus and it seems to be the case also between michahellis and cachinnans. conclusion can only be that there is or has been a certain gene flow so phenotypes get intermediate. so why should this not be the case in barabensis - cachinnans? barriers have been discussed but there's still a long way to go in research of the argentatus-fuscus-complex.

 

[lou salomon]

Thanks lou - JanJ

This next group sent to me at the same time as the previous

I have put down as Steppe Gull (barabensis) for birds in pic 1 and 2

for pic 3 & 4 (same birds) not really certain - but bird on left I thought was Caspian then steppe gull I had for the center bird -- bird to the right don't know

the bird standing among the resting BHGs (pic 1) looks very much like a (subadult? 5cy?) caspian gull. i wouldn't want to call the others.

 

[lou salomon]

again sth. happened and i can't attach pics. also the html-tags aren't working. what's wrong?

11.7. at noon. still not working. i would have liked to show you some new pics...html-settings? is there something like that on a computer?

 

[JANJ]

Hi Lou.

My asking about the head shape and bill size regarding the standing female type Caspian was not really a question - just meant to show that Caspian doesn´t always show the head shape and bill size that is expected and that someone might react to the question by suggesting just the same, if you see what I mean.

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

alright, voila, it works again.

i've been sent some interesting pics by joszef zabo jun. look at these wingtips first and tell me what you see? later i'll post some of the whole pics.
pics 3 and 4 show the right and left wing of the same bird. pics 5 and 6 also from the same bird (upperwing left + underwing right)

 

[lou salomon]

more

 

[JANJ]

So - there they are finally.

I would say cachinnans for all of them - perhaps except nr 2 & 5.

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

:eek!: :eek!: :eek!: :eek!: :eek!:


if you mean 7 and 8 as exceptions..? and as such being pontics? rest should be michahellis!

:-C :-C

:storm: :storm: :storm:

again html tags disabled so i try to attach the whole birds in the text section.

oh man, no time and no function...

 

[JANJ]

No - the other way around Lou!

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

well, when i'll be able to post the whole pics we may come to another agreement. but you with these wingpics alone you don't want to tell me that pic 7 and 8 are michahellis while all the other are cachinnans??????????

 

[lou salomon]

it is still not working...hopefully tonight

 

[JANJ]

Maybe it´s me Lou, but I mean that all looks like Caspian - except nr 2 + 5 in post 493 and possible nr 5 in the following post. - which might be YLG,s.
Judgng wing patern of these two at this time of year (wear) is not always easy.

JanJ