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gulls (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter lou salomon
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lou salomon
the birdonist
JANJ
Well-known member
Surprisingly long pale tongue in p10 on the gull nr 2 in last post, but note the shadow pale grey above the blackish mark. A look at the upperside should reveal another impression I guess. Also note the longe tongue in nr 4 in the right wing, compared to the impression in the left wing, although variable in michahellis, especially from the eastern range. So - now they all appear to bel michahellis. Nice one Lou!
JanJ
JanJ
JANJ
Well-known member
Yes two more michahellis.
Although some cachinans have pale eyes, the broad, in front of the eye, red orbital ring and bill tip curve surely is in favour of michahellis, but one should be aware of that some male cachinnans can show a surprisingly similar bill shape. Then there´s other characters to look for besides the bill!
http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/72243349
However - the difference is often obviously quite clear.
http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/88534933
JanJ
Although some cachinans have pale eyes, the broad, in front of the eye, red orbital ring and bill tip curve surely is in favour of michahellis, but one should be aware of that some male cachinnans can show a surprisingly similar bill shape. Then there´s other characters to look for besides the bill!
http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/72243349
However - the difference is often obviously quite clear.
http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/88534933
JanJ
lou salomon
the birdonist
thank you, jan, for your look at them!
i'm still full of doubts about the identity of 7 and 8. i've reordered them in 2 posts so we can number them from 1-10 (i think there has been some confusion already - this should be clear now).
however i'd like to go into some details one by one. sure i'm keen to hear your comments on these thoughts.
1. michahellis, possibly a female or a younger adult (5-6 cy?) due to lack of mirror in p9 and rel. small mirror in p10 for eastern michahellis. we can't see the tongues on p9 and p10 and i think this individual is likely to have nice solid black outer primaries.
2. michahellis, looks like being a 4cy or 5cy with that large mark on p4.
3.= 4. michahellis adult with some oddities: mark on p5 is very thin, especially on inner web, long pale tongues on outer primaries (ventral) - see course of black margin! tiny mirror on p9 confined to outer web (at least in left wing), but p9-mirror surely is variable. for me a candidate for YLG with some cachinnans-genes.
5. = 6. michahellis (same pic, i posted both wings previously). solid black in wingtip like in most western mediterranean and central european birds, no p9 mirror.
7. michahellis?? this is the other extreme. although from the beginning i thought it was a strange YLG with a strong caspian look (primary pattern), later i really got looking and thinking if it wasn't actually a cachinnans. bill and iris look like michahellis to me (though neither can be seen really well) but that primary pattern is almost classic for caspian gull. it seems there are even long pale tongues on the upperside visible (translucent). keeps causing me headache. same goes for:
8. ??? now this is really odd! almost a thayeri-pattern but unfortunately we can't see it well. but we see an irregular line of large pale tongue in p10 and obviously a very long tongue on p9 too. i think p10 mirror (no subterminal mark) merges even with the pale tongue on inner web! this is sometimes seen in cachinnans or maybe in hybrids. could this be a hybrid cachinnans x michahellis or cachinnans x argentatus (like panov's intergrades around moscow or the polish hybrids??? iris is pale yellow, feet seem greenish yellow but could be a photo effect and they're rel. bright yellow.
9. michahellis, classic pattern with a 2cy in the background - see the pale base of p10 (usually a cachinnans feature)
10. michahellis - another pretty typical one.
i'm still full of doubts about the identity of 7 and 8. i've reordered them in 2 posts so we can number them from 1-10 (i think there has been some confusion already - this should be clear now).
however i'd like to go into some details one by one. sure i'm keen to hear your comments on these thoughts.
1. michahellis, possibly a female or a younger adult (5-6 cy?) due to lack of mirror in p9 and rel. small mirror in p10 for eastern michahellis. we can't see the tongues on p9 and p10 and i think this individual is likely to have nice solid black outer primaries.
2. michahellis, looks like being a 4cy or 5cy with that large mark on p4.
3.= 4. michahellis adult with some oddities: mark on p5 is very thin, especially on inner web, long pale tongues on outer primaries (ventral) - see course of black margin! tiny mirror on p9 confined to outer web (at least in left wing), but p9-mirror surely is variable. for me a candidate for YLG with some cachinnans-genes.
5. = 6. michahellis (same pic, i posted both wings previously). solid black in wingtip like in most western mediterranean and central european birds, no p9 mirror.
7. michahellis?? this is the other extreme. although from the beginning i thought it was a strange YLG with a strong caspian look (primary pattern), later i really got looking and thinking if it wasn't actually a cachinnans. bill and iris look like michahellis to me (though neither can be seen really well) but that primary pattern is almost classic for caspian gull. it seems there are even long pale tongues on the upperside visible (translucent). keeps causing me headache. same goes for:
8. ??? now this is really odd! almost a thayeri-pattern but unfortunately we can't see it well. but we see an irregular line of large pale tongue in p10 and obviously a very long tongue on p9 too. i think p10 mirror (no subterminal mark) merges even with the pale tongue on inner web! this is sometimes seen in cachinnans or maybe in hybrids. could this be a hybrid cachinnans x michahellis or cachinnans x argentatus (like panov's intergrades around moscow or the polish hybrids??? iris is pale yellow, feet seem greenish yellow but could be a photo effect and they're rel. bright yellow.
9. michahellis, classic pattern with a 2cy in the background - see the pale base of p10 (usually a cachinnans feature)
10. michahellis - another pretty typical one.
lou salomon
the birdonist
hi jan
i'm aware of the variations in caspian gull and know that eastern cachinnans can have a look similar to YLG (see images of mali from israel in the bf gallery...)
still i'd like more thoughts on the extreme patterning in the birds 7 and 8 - are they michahellis or cachinnans? both with pale irises, apparently strong bills and rel. bright feet.
i'm aware of the variations in caspian gull and know that eastern cachinnans can have a look similar to YLG (see images of mali from israel in the bf gallery...)
still i'd like more thoughts on the extreme patterning in the birds 7 and 8 - are they michahellis or cachinnans? both with pale irises, apparently strong bills and rel. bright feet.
JANJ
Well-known member
More like for those who don´t know the variability Lou.
I would prefer a view of 7 & 8 from above, also to see if the primary coverts have any dark markings. In 7 the pattern is quite similar to this one:
http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/73041188
The large mirror on p9, the dark pattern as shown in 7, the rather pale bases to secondaries, from the image might not be so reliable, but would indacate Caspian alright. Large pale eye, blunt-tipped bill, leg colour would be alright for Caspian, as it would in image 8, indicate YLG. Hybrid?
In 8 I find it rather impossible to see properly which one we could choose, at least I need a better view of this one!
JanJ
I would prefer a view of 7 & 8 from above, also to see if the primary coverts have any dark markings. In 7 the pattern is quite similar to this one:
http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/73041188
The large mirror on p9, the dark pattern as shown in 7, the rather pale bases to secondaries, from the image might not be so reliable, but would indacate Caspian alright. Large pale eye, blunt-tipped bill, leg colour would be alright for Caspian, as it would in image 8, indicate YLG. Hybrid?
In 8 I find it rather impossible to see properly which one we could choose, at least I need a better view of this one!
JanJ
lou salomon
the birdonist
thanks again, i think that's how far we can get on bird 8. still i cannot imagine a YLG having such a large pale p10-tongue on underside.
as for 7 - primary pattern is better for cachinnans; it even has a larger p9-mirror than the one in stepháne's pic. two details of this bird:
- a closeup of the head (see if we can get further with the extent of orbital ring in front of the eye)
- left wingtip again showing the translucent tongue on upperside of p8. still it is visible that on the upperside (greyer zones) it shows a much more extended amount of black on p9 and p10, only p8 with a wider tongue. all this could be allright for a michahellis! also p5-mark is rather broad. i think we can exclude a younger bird with such large mirrors on p9&10. nonetheless it would be the most extreme YLG-pattern i have ever seen!
cheers,
as for 7 - primary pattern is better for cachinnans; it even has a larger p9-mirror than the one in stepháne's pic. two details of this bird:
- a closeup of the head (see if we can get further with the extent of orbital ring in front of the eye)
- left wingtip again showing the translucent tongue on upperside of p8. still it is visible that on the upperside (greyer zones) it shows a much more extended amount of black on p9 and p10, only p8 with a wider tongue. all this could be allright for a michahellis! also p5-mark is rather broad. i think we can exclude a younger bird with such large mirrors on p9&10. nonetheless it would be the most extreme YLG-pattern i have ever seen!
cheers,
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SJC
Well-known member
Very interesting and informative thread! Good work guys. The latest gull of course is a Pallas's (i think a 1st cy). Seen my fair share in Cyprus. Still can't get my head round that Caspian Gull with the bright chunky bill and large pale eye. The wing tip pattern is quite Caspian like though.
lou salomon
the birdonist
got a new pic of the last discussed bird (no. 7) but it shows it in the same way, nothing new to see except maybe that in this pic p9 seems to have slim tongue too (att. 1and 2).
somehow discussing the different amount of black on p10 i came across this bird again which looks a lot like having a female caspian body but with strong gonys and triangular nostrils (att. 3-4). now i noticed in one photo (pic5) the mostly black p10. intuitively i thought - maybe a more easterly bird?
somehow discussing the different amount of black on p10 i came across this bird again which looks a lot like having a female caspian body but with strong gonys and triangular nostrils (att. 3-4). now i noticed in one photo (pic5) the mostly black p10. intuitively i thought - maybe a more easterly bird?
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JANJ
Well-known member
lou salomon
the birdonist
got the original file of the other enigmatic gull (no8) and did some higher res. crops of head and wing. probably not solvable.
- iris is much less pigmentated than on average caspian
- legs look greenish yellow
- large tip to p10, large p9 mirror
- very restricted amount of black in outer primaries
- p10 mirror merging with pale tongue on underside on inner web
could this be an argentatus x cachinnans hybrid like they occure in the moscow area?
did you see this beautiful heuglini?: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=118657
- iris is much less pigmentated than on average caspian
- legs look greenish yellow
- large tip to p10, large p9 mirror
- very restricted amount of black in outer primaries
- p10 mirror merging with pale tongue on underside on inner web
could this be an argentatus x cachinnans hybrid like they occure in the moscow area?
did you see this beautiful heuglini?: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=118657
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lou salomon
the birdonist
lou salomon
the birdonist
caspia with half p5 mark?
does this caspian gull indeed have only small subterminal mark on p5 (on outer web), or did i count wrong? not the most common thing in caspian gull i think. danube delta 30.5.07
another bird at the same place had a nice p4-mark in the same manner (pic3).
does this caspian gull indeed have only small subterminal mark on p5 (on outer web), or did i count wrong? not the most common thing in caspian gull i think. danube delta 30.5.07
another bird at the same place had a nice p4-mark in the same manner (pic3).
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JANJ
Well-known member
Speaking of armenicus, here are some inks if you haven´t seen those Lou.
http://www.armeniabirding.info/n_pass/ArmenianGullLarusarmenicus/index.html
http://www.ornio.net/Lararm.html
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/view...d=5103663314502173809&iid=5103664388243999042
http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/ind... DESC&species=armenian+gull&pic_type=englanti
You have counted the primaries correct, the Caspian Gull doe´s have a dark mark on the outer web only. This I haven´t seen, but well some with narrow dark mark but covering both webs.
The gull from Jordan certainly looks like armenicus, a first winter and wery worn at this time of year, but the iner primaries loks a bit dark perhaps and not all armenicus looks heavy-billed.
JanJ
http://www.armeniabirding.info/n_pass/ArmenianGullLarusarmenicus/index.html
http://www.ornio.net/Lararm.html
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/view...d=5103663314502173809&iid=5103664388243999042
http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/ind... DESC&species=armenian+gull&pic_type=englanti
You have counted the primaries correct, the Caspian Gull doe´s have a dark mark on the outer web only. This I haven´t seen, but well some with narrow dark mark but covering both webs.
The gull from Jordan certainly looks like armenicus, a first winter and wery worn at this time of year, but the iner primaries loks a bit dark perhaps and not all armenicus looks heavy-billed.
JanJ
lou salomon
the birdonist
JANJ
Well-known member
Hello Lou.
Thought that you where away to Gotland, with the Pallas´s Gull in mind.
Not seen again. Been around Öland these days searching - if the possibility should occur that it might turn up somewhere there, but no, just some Caspians and a few juvenile YLG, which of course is good enough.
JanJ
JanJ
Thought that you where away to Gotland, with the Pallas´s Gull in mind.
Not seen again. Been around Öland these days searching - if the possibility should occur that it might turn up somewhere there, but no, just some Caspians and a few juvenile YLG, which of course is good enough.
JanJ
JanJ
