gulls (1 Viewer)

[lou salomon]

Hello Lou.

Thought that you where away to Gotland, with the Pallas´s Gull in mind.
Not seen again. Been around Öland these days searching - if the possibility should occur that it might turn up somewhere there, but no, just some Caspians and a few juvenile YLG, which of course is good enough.

JanJ

JanJ

wow, didn't you wait for ages for THE QUEEN?
no, we will stay on gotland from 9.-27.august.
where's the report of ichtyaetus, on svala?

 

[JANJ]

Here it is Lou:

http://www.artportalen.se/artportalen/gallery/image.aspx?obsid=12835709

JanJ

 

[ody]

Hallo ,Gull_experts!
I photographed this Gull at Axios river , 7/7.
I think it is a michachelis.
The question is ,how old?

 

[lou salomon]

approximately 2,5 month old, in full juvenile plumage. soon some scapulars will be moulted. bill is not yet fully grown and might become a big male bill but sexing is unsafe in this stage. do you have any rocks around where they breed (or rocky islands?). are there inland broods in northern greece, do you know?

 

[ody]

I do not know about inland broods .This is next to the sea where were many of them.

 

[lou salomon]

i see michahellis and cachinnans 8-P8-P8-P8-P8-P8-P

 

[lou salomon]

a new mystery from romanian black sea coast

26.07.06 by joszef szabo at rom. black sea coast (vadu)

he says it was as dark as a graellsii/heuglini.

to me it looks mostly like a michahellis. structure, moult, iris, underwing, coverts - in rough terms.

:smoke:

 

[lou salomon]

there's no known photo of a heuglini in romania, that's why it caused a bit stir.
how do we exclude graellsii (even though it doesn't look like one)?

 

[JANJ]

I think heuglini can be excluded by structural differences, bill dimension and less advanced moult in wing coverts.
Mentioned as dark as as graellsii/heuglini. In the images I get the paler than the species/ssp mentioned, although on mantle tone some graellsiiand & heuglini perhaps can´t be excluded, as can´t michhellis.

My guess would be a 3cy (pure grey inner primaries) michahellis!

JanJ

 

[Szabo Jozsef]

I think heuglini can be excluded by structural differences, bill dimension and less advanced moult in wing coverts.
Mentioned as dark as as graellsii/heuglini. In the images I get the paler than the species/ssp mentioned, although on mantle tone some graellsiiand & heuglini perhaps can´t be excluded, as can´t michhellis.

My guess would be a 3cy (pure grey inner primaries) michahellis!

JanJ

Absolutely, my first impression was induced rather by the gray and heavy strikes of the head which is quite uncommon among michaellis so it was a strange gull! apparently only for me, but still good to hear your opinions too, good lesson
Thanks

jozsef

 

[Szabo Jozsef]

Thx Lou for posting the pictures!
Jj

 

[lou salomon]

then we all agree, including visa :t:

 

[lou salomon]

ylg age

1. looks like an advanced 2cy to me.

2. "normal" 2cy_s look like this bird (whatever is normal in large gulls)

3. see orbital and gape colour in this postbreeding moulting adult (well, i suppose it is an adult because in the original pic you also only see the front half of the bird -pic 4.

all pics: cr. mihai, 26.7. mamaia, romania

 

[Cristian Mihai]

1. looks like an advanced 2cy to me.

2. "normal" 2cy_s look like this bird (whatever is normal in large gulls)

3. see orbital and gape colour in this postbreeding moulting adult (well, i suppose it is an adult because in the original pic you also only see the front half of the bird -pic 4.

all pics: cr. mihai, 26.7. mamaia, romania

Hi Lou,

Here is an almost complete view of the 3rd bird.

Cristian

 

[Cristian Mihai]

What about this one? I took the pic in Mamaia (Black Sea coast) on July 29th.
I think is simply a darker YL Gull...

Cristian

 

[lou salomon]

it's not too dark. fotogr. in good but low sun morning light and standing in line with the optic axe of the camera is making it look darker. an adult i'd say. the other one too. in this pic (the one from 25.8.) orbital and gape look redder, another optical/photo effect.
many ringed spanish michahellis on this website: http://gaviotasyanillas.blogspot.com/search/label/michahellis gallegas

 

[lou salomon]

gr coverts and tertials on juv ylg

mamaia beach 25.-26.08

 

[lou salomon]

caspians

1. a pair - male is paler eyed, a tendency i have seen in other pairs too. male has definitively a triangular nostril (visible in better resolution). and it has unusually much red skin in front of the eye (prolonged orbital as in michahellis).

2. a moulting 3cy - no mirror in p10 visible!

3. why is this a caspian

pcis by florian andronache, july 2008 in the danube delta

 

[JANJ]

Hi all.
If not to worn, as can be seen on Lou,s images greater overts and tertial pattern of juv/1st winter Yellow-legged Gull has a degree of variation, as in other LWHG. Gulls vary, so why should YLG or Caspian be any exception from this well known fact? Who would bother to study the tertial and covert parttern in Herring Gulls? Now, there are also other features to consider when separating YLG, CG and Herring but the pattern of these feather tracts are very important and usually do differ quite obviously when considered fairly typical, typical - a word not so much associated with gull plumages! However - as much as gulls (and birds in general) shows a certain degree of variation, gulls especially (important to remember!) gulls generally show less variation in fresh juvenile plumages - problems usually arising after, or during the first partial moult to 1st winter plumage.
The focus on the tertial and covert pattern in YLG or Caspian has partly to do with the separation of Herring Gull, which has a different pattern on these feather tracts, apart from other significant differences - such as structure, bill shape - moult pattern and to a certain degree, timing of moult.
Considering the greater coverts the examples above in Lou,s post - bird 4 & 5 has somewhat the pattern we usually associate with YLG, give and take also bird 1, with the inner ones being barred and gradually darkerning on the outer creating a dark rectangle.
In the eatern part of YLG range some show an almost Herring Gull, or Great-Black backed Gull pattern with all, or almost all greater coverts pale and barred.
On the other hand some Herring shows a pattern quite similar to YLG, or Caspian.

http://www.elisanet.fi/antero.lindholm/public_html/lokki/lararg1kvtumma.htm

Which is which? Note pattern of inner primaries, rump, inner tail, bill, degree of contrast in plumage and so on.

http://www.bongariliitto.fi/kuvat/1...larmic8DU_20030816_tamper_rauvi/IMG_23456.jpg

Some with pattern of greater coverts rather similar to some Herring Gulls. Note that the outer coverts can be hidden by overlaying flank feathers!

http://waarneming.nl/fotonew/2/377932.jpg

http://waarneming.nl/fotonew/8/375138.jpg

http://waarneming.nl/fotonew/6/140786.jpg

http://waarneming.nl/fotonew/0/139220.jpg

http://waarneming.nl/fotonew/2/139192.jpg

http://waarneming.nl/fotonew/2/138922.jpg

http://waarneming.nl/fotonew/0/138910.jpg

YLG and Caspian, which is which?

http://waarneming.nl/fotonew/7/138907.jpg

Not so difficult to spot the YLG:

http://waarneming.nl/fotonew/5/300235.jpg

Tertial pattern usually differ - YLG dark centered with pale egdes - usually not reaching the greater coverts - with a variable pattern of pale markings near the tip at the edges or internal ones. On Herring usually with more pale notches at the edges.

http://www.pbase.com/corstiaan/image/83783302

Exceptions occur:

http://waarneming.nl/fotonew/3/192153.jpg

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=18407

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=18110

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=17757

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/juvmic/p_bulg/index2.html

Classic:

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=13189

http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/michahellis.html

Herring:

http://www.pbase.com/corstiaan/image/87899957

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/juvmic/args/

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=5631

http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/argentatus.html

http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/1cyGull_20070923.html

http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/1cyarg_20070923.html

http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/1wargTara_July.html

http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/1w_arg_Tara_January.html

http://www.xs4all.nl/~calidris/comp.htm

http://www.xs4all.nl/~calidris/witkoppen.htm

JanJ

 

[JANJ]

Nr 3 in Lou,s last post above looks more like a YLG, could theoretically even be a Herring.
The big eye, structure - belly is front heavy, Caspian has a tendency to have protruding breast and lower belly with a flatish belly in between.Although worn underwing could point to Caspian - pale axillaries but the rest of the wing is quite heavily marked so not much to rely on as variation occur in underwing pattern in Caspian - and YLG - Herring.

http://www.elisanet.fi/antero.lindholm/public_html/lokki/cachinnans1kvsiipialta.htm

In the first image the right gull has much of a Caspian loo to it, structure - leg lenght (some YLG also shortlegged in different poses), bill shape, dark - not so small looking - eye with no extension of the reddish orbital ring in front and back of the eye (many worn YLG in late summer has variable shapes of the orbital ring). However I think it´s a YLG since eastern YLG are sometimes rather Caspian like in bill shape and structure, but not so easy at all times to separate these two!

JanJ

JanJ