gulls (1 Viewer)

[JANJ]

Yes Lou - pretty advanced YLG. Some do moult some t-feathers as well. Of all the first winter YLG I have seen - only 2 seen with t-feather moult.

Also some of these with advanced moult

http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/micha/micha1b.html

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

Yes Lou - pretty advanced YLG. Some do moult some t-feathers as well. Of all the first winter YLG I have seen - only 2 seen with t-feather moult.

Also some of these with advanced moult

http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/micha/micha1b.html

JanJ

this was probably one of them :

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/greece03.html

 

[lou salomon]

caspian with asymmetrical p5-pattern

hi

http://www.ornitho.ch/photos/2008-12/2655-2422742-1682.jpg
http://www.ornitho.ch/photos/2008-12/2655-2422742-4117.jpg
http://www.ornitho.ch/photos/2008-12/2655-2422742-3177.jpg

left wing seems to lack any p5 subterminal mark

 

[lou salomon]

http://www.tarsiger.com/images/komi/Larhyp_Es_141208_006_f.jpg

the top gull is a herring, right? note the contrasting narrow black subterminal tailband but with broad white tips (i know that's well within variation, i've photogr. such birds on gotland) and note that outer webs of primaries are dark! it seems that many HG from finland resemble in some characters caspian gulls.

also one of the other images with the juv glaucous show a 2cy bird with rel. extensive white p10-mirrors. but the underparts are very dark for caspian:

http://www.tarsiger.com/images/komi/Larhyp_Es_141208_008_f.jpg

 

[deborah4]

hi Jan/Lou/et al

Saw this on another forum and just wanted an opinion - it's been Id'd as a L.f.graselli (which had me wrong footed initially thinking more of L.a.argentatus)

It was taken in UK in October but it appeared to me to have an arrested primary moult for an Oct 4cy LBBG, or is this normal? - or would this be a late fledger from year 1 and hence it's a bit slow with the autumn moult? Does it work like that!? ( I guess pp. is a moot point on this bird?).

I also noted what appears to be extensive 'white' on one of the primaries or perhaps its just wear.

The head also looked rather angular to me (more herring gull shape) and the bill rather slim - I tried not to take the mantle grade too seriously since this was the only photo and I've no idea of light conditions etc but perhaps does look better for graselli lacking any hint of blue, as do the overall plumage features and pp.

T.I.A

 

[halftwo]

Hi Deborah,

Just the sort of question I'd be asking about this bird.
I've been lurking here from time to time, trying to pick up tips from the geniuses. Primaries do appear wierd - rather pale & worn?
Why do you say 4cy? Wouldn't that be adult?
Primaries show no hint of white mirrors (but 3rd winter graellsii should have the least amount of white, which could have worn...)

Yours, in the classroom...H!

 

[deborah4]

Hi Deborah,


Why do you say 4cy? Wouldn't that be adult?


Yours, in the classroom...H!

apologies, got Larus Argentatus on the brain!

Meant 3cy although presumably late LBBG developers will still show some sub-adult features up until Feb/March (4cy)? (and primary moult can go on well past October I think)

A typical (ish) October bird

http://www.gull-research.org/lbbg3cyd/5362160oct.htm

It's the structure of bill and head/position of eye that gets me a little with this too - the combination of which looks very similar to HG?

Yours in the back row until the teachers return!

 

[lou salomon]

no teachers around, deb and halftwo (richard?). my field experience with graellsii LBBG is rel. limited so i depend on pics and books and forums like you.

your october bird looks perfect for a graellsii though. on 'gull-research' there are plenty of suitable examples like the one from your last post, deborah.

as you've already noticed it's a 3cy rather than 4cy and moult is fine for october with the worn 2nd gen. p10 retained. i see nothing in head and bill shape that would suggest argentatus, which generally speaking has a more robust bill with a stronger gonys.
even the combination of 2nd gen p10 (without a mirror, making it definitely a 3cy) and adult like upperparts excludes HG which btw has a more compact shape to body and wings. maybe it was just that "face" that you didn't like being a LBBG, deb?

don't seize to ask but come out of your back row - sometimes all of us are making fools of us (and i didn't mean you did this time!)

 

[halftwo]

Thanks Lou,

Debs 'typical' Oct bird shows a good set of new primaries and the differences are obvious there. Presumably Debs (original) bird is a northern breeder which should get new primaries before March(?)

H (yes, Richard)

 

[deborah4]

don't seize to ask but come out of your back row - sometimes all of us are making fools of us (and i didn't mean you did this time!)

Thank you Lou - I'll move forward a row: An adult winter/maybe Nov graellsii yes? (I don't know location/date) But trying to learn folded mirror pattern as differing from michahellis (and to avoid confusion, atlantis which can show similar mantle colour to graellsii - setting apart structure etc for the moment!). If tip of P10 and terminal black band not visible, is there any other way? eg. size of A spots? Can graellsii show this terminal black band, isn't there one here or am I looking wrongly?! I also thought generally thought Aspots were about the same size as the eye on graellsii? but P7-8 being larger in michahellis , yet it seems not to be the case here, p7-8 look larger than P9-10?! Again, maybe I don't see image correctly. How does primary pattern in folded wing compare with atlantis?

 

[JANJ]

The pattern on the folded wing in adult (younger ages have smaller or no white tips), gulls are variable in the sence that the white primary tips are larger the more fresh they are, opposite to smaller - or completely lost the more worn. In deborah,s image the number of primaries can be seen quite well. As p5 is usually hidden under the tertials, provided these are reasonable fresh (in deb,s image the tertials are hanging down a bit making p5 visible) the next primary visible is p6.
Usually, the white p-tips of YLG and a LBBG are smaller than on a Herring. However this is not a reliable character and should only be used in combination with other characters, if at all, and that goes for atlantis to.

Check these fresh adult YLG,s and note the variation:

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.php?actie=foto&cat=1&subcat=1&subcatsub=222

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.php?actie=foto&cat=1&subcat=1&subcatsub=202

http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/michahellis5f.html

http://www.pbase.com/corstiaan/image/81052667

many more YLG,s:

http://waarneming.nl/soort/photos/250

and LBBG:

http://waarneming.nl/soort/photos/131

JanJ


Herring:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/argentatus5a.html

http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/hg/adw_01.php

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.php?actie=foto&cat=1&subcat=5&subcatsub=281

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.php?actie=foto&cat=1&subcat=5&subcatsub=173

many more Herrings:

http://waarneming.nl/soort/photos/205

 

[deborah4]

thanks Jan.

er ... this one a L.cachinnans yes? But a nominate or perhaps chac/ponticus or neither! Pale iris with a rather mean heuglini type expression! A 4cy type (not sure of date but presuming early summer & uk).

I think these yl gulls are far too complex and far too varied for me to ever get the hang of them, one can but try though

Nb both pics same bird but cf. bill shape and tones - looks younger in #2 - lesson to be wary of photographic conditions/light etc I guess.

 

[luke]

heres one for you guys to ponder over (or not as the case may be).

 

[lou salomon]

hi debs, have been ill the last days and still am a bit, hence no energy and little time. however i don't want to leave your 2 latest question posts unreplied.

Thank you Lou - I'll move forward a row: An adult winter/maybe Nov graellsii yes?

yes it looks like one one upperpart tone.

But trying to learn folded mirror pattern as differing from michahellis (and to avoid confusion, atlantis which can show similar mantle colour to graellsii - setting apart structure etc for the moment!). If tip of P10 and terminal black band not visible, is there any other way? eg. size of A spots?

primary patterns of graellsii and michahellis overlap a lot. usually upperpart tone, structure, head streaking (in such a fresh winter adult), leg lenghth etc. is better. let alone size of apical spots - they vary not only with wear but slightly also individually. herring gulls should have slightly larger white tips tips but i think this is only visible in direct comparison and might even not be obvious at all. in good images with dubious birds they may help as an additional feature, but in the field - forget about them i'd say.
what is visible usually is the size of p10 mirror ventrally i.e. underside of the opposite wing when looking from the side, in the dorsal view p10 usually being hidden behind p9. in caspians you can see the grey tongue (also ventrally) coming closer to the tip than in the other taxons. but both graellsii and michahellis can have an all white caspian like p10 tip (mirror merged with white tip), and a variable size of p9-mirror.

Can graellsii show this terminal black band, isn't there one here or am I looking wrongly?! I also thought generally thought Aspots were about the same size as the eye on graellsii? but P7-8 being larger in michahellis , yet it seems not to be the case here, p7-8 look larger than P9-10?! Again, maybe I don't see image correctly. How does primary pattern in folded wing compare with atlantis?

a lot of details that, again, i don't consider as essential for ID. it would be a subterminal band (that divides mirror from tip). atlantis YLG sometimes are hard to sepaerate from graellsii, best on shorter wings (see projection) i guess. but i think they're pretty rare in britain.

 

[lou salomon]

thanks Jan.

er ... this one a L.cachinnans yes? But a nominate or perhaps chac/ponticus or neither! Pale iris with a rather mean heuglini type expression! A 4cy type (not sure of date but presuming early summer & uk).

I think these yl gulls are far too complex and far too varied for me to ever get the hang of them, one can but try though

Nb both pics same bird but cf. bill shape and tones - looks younger in #2 - lesson to be wary of photographic conditions/light etc I guess.

this bird is absolutely not straighforward! a 4cy type (3rd generation primaries) with paler iris, very short primary projection (too short actually for caspian!) and a pretty high bill.
sorry, got to leave for work - certainly there are some caspian things in it but could be an advanced herring? - usually not with that combination of mirrors and solid p5 mark? well, a closer look at this is needed! i'll come back.

http://www.magikbirds.com/image.asp?title_id=681&show_thumbnails=True

looks like a similar bird. dick had it down as "herring gull" (back in 2002), but intermediate with caspian, or possibly caspian. to me it looks very good for a cachinnans. males really can have strong bills - see this bird i photographed in the danube delta (with angular looking head profile, paler than normal iris, tendentially found more often in males due to my obs., and strongish gonys:

http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=152601

a note on taxonomy, you mentioned "nominate" and "ponticus". ponticus is not accepted as subspecies but is the western form we are used to see in (western/central) europe with large mirrors (all white p10 tip), and extended grey tongues on outer primaries. the eastern form (caspian see and further east) has more black in wingtip, often similar to michahellis YLG, and is possibly intergrading with barabensis (steppe gull). to me 'ponticus' is a very distinct form and i like to use that name to separate it from eastern "nominate" cachinnans. sometimes barabensis and mongolicus also are regarded as ssp. of caspian gull but genetic studies have put them more towards heuglini and vega gull respectively.

back to the primary pattern of your bird. i had to look hard to find an argentatus with a similar pattern (2 mirrors, strong p5 and even small p4 mark): a 4 cy february by mars muusse

http://waarneming.nl/foto/view/123266

edit: well and this nice wingtip (right bird, 3rd winter, december, finland):

http://www.tarsiger.com/images/hytpe/larhyp_14.12.08_IMG_0987_1.jpg

your bird (date and place would be nice!, source?) seems to show larger mirrors though.
i'd expect a caspian to show a visible grey tongue on upper p8 and longer ones on the underside of p8-10; too much black in p8-10 for a 'ponticus', even 4cy in my opinion. aslo that bill in second image never would go as caspian, very "tip heavy", but that might be the angle. i leaning towards one of those many argentatus with caspian features...or maybe hybrids...

 

[lou salomon]

what do you think about this 2nd gen. almost all black tail (probably a caspian gull), 11.12.2008 bucharest, by cristian. well, even some 1st winters have broader than usual tail bands.

 

[deborah4]

Hope you're feeling better Lou!

Thanks for the full replies above. Left to my own devices for a while, I came to the conclusion the last gull was 'probably' a Herring Gull/argenteus on structure but I'll leave it you to explain the 'caspianesque' wing pattern - an early breeder? ( just as I thought it safe to get back in the water )

Found out the pic was taken in March in Kent, so my earlier suggestion of a late winter/early summer stays the same.

EDIT: just seen your extension to your earlier post Lou, thanks again - I'll look through the links - I said to the photographer I'd pass his photo on to the 'experts' for further opinion, so hope you don't mind me relaying your thoughts too! That Danube bird looks very like our gull here - Mars' gull's wing pattern looks good! Thanks for taking the time to find the links.

 

[lou salomon]

heres one for you guys to ponder over (or not as the case may be).

hi luke,

always a nice challenge to id bodyless wings :-O

on first sight that outer primary covert iritated me and i thought it was a growing p10 (also i counted 9 primaries only , left wing). still now looking closer i think all primaries are fully grown. with that background, a small p10 mirror only and so much black in outer primaries i would guess it is a 4th winter yellow-legged gull.

now show us its head as well please. o

 

[lou salomon]

cachi lacking p5 mark again

herastrau park, bucharest, 17.12. (photo cristian mihai)

once again an adult cachinnans (?) with just a tiny dot on outer web of p5. are these all hybrids/intergrades with argentatus? dorsal grey tongues are nice and long. :smoke::smoke::smoke::smoke::smoke:

 

[lou salomon]

same theme

remember this pic by daniel petrescu, danube delta, 26.02.2004?

iris is very dark. legs are grey-greenish-colourless, webs on feet more ockre, warm toned; at high resolution i can see really tiny spots on the outer web of p5 on both wings. but again - a caspian type without a clear mark on p5...

and for completion my own pic of a bird in danube delta, 30.5.2007 (already shown further back in this thread)

btw. what age do you think the flying bird in post 679 is? is that a retarded 3rd winter (3cy) caspian with apparently only p10 mirror, lacking p9 mirror?

cheers and MERRY CHRISTMAS!