gulls (2 Viewers)

[lou salomon]

are the 2 pics of the same ind.? apart from the dark eye the 2nd one has more of a YLG pattern but if it's the same it has some immature dark markings on primary coverts, so 4-5cy thus the small p9 mirror and maybe large amount of black. still looks more lika a dark eyed micha! that would be really outstanding. but i may be wrong.

 

[lou salomon]

About the third one I'm only guessing: 3cy YL ?

looks dark eyed but yes, prob. 3cy ylg

 

[JANJ]

does any caspian (female?) show red on upper mandible?!? (re jan's comment)

Appaerntly these:

http://www.artportalen.se/artportalen/gallery/Image.aspx?rappsyst=0&obsID=7770101&imageID=25244

JanJ

 

[Cristian Mihai]

are the 2 pics of the same ind.? apart from the dark eye the 2nd one has more of a YLG pattern but if it's the same it has some immature dark markings on primary coverts, so 4-5cy thus the small p9 mirror and maybe large amount of black. still looks more lika a dark eyed micha! that would be really outstanding. but i may be wrong.

I'm not 100% sure that is the same bird, Lou.

 

[JANJ]

I think it´s difficult to be sure if the two YLG,s in post 799 are the same individual.
Then again the second bird with it´s long grey tongue on p9 and mid primaries might suggest Caspian. However pattern of primaries is whitin variation and a dark eye (looks large for Caspian) is not unknown in YLG, together with a strong bill and blunt tip and strong gonydeal angle would fit YLG better.
The one in post 800 looks like a YLG, but difficult to give a sensible description of.

JanJ

 

[Cristian Mihai]

I think it´s difficult to be sure if the two YLG,s in post 799 are the same individual.
Then again the second bird with it´s long grey tongue on p9 and mid primaries might suggest Caspian. However pattern of primaries is whitin variation and a dark eye (looks large for Caspian) is not unknown in YLG, together with a strong bill and blunt tip and strong gonydeal angle would fit YLG better.
The one in post 800 looks like a YLG, but difficult to give a sensible description of.

JanJ

This one could be the same bird (?) with the one from # 800. Sorry, as I wrote before there are hundreds of gulls drawing circles into the sky in a relative small area. It is very difficult to follow a bird in flight...

 

[JANJ]

Hello Cristian.

Surely the same individual! Note how the bill takes on a slightly more robust appearance in the new image - that together with jizz, the lack of a mirror (as in some Caspian) tiny, small or larger on p10 would suggest YLG over Caspian.

And Cristian, fine set of gull images you have there!

JanJ

 

[Cristian Mihai]

Hello Cristian.

Surely the same individual! Note how the bill takes on a slightly more robust appearance in the new image - that together with jizz, the lack of a mirror (as in some Caspian) tiny, small or larger on p10 would suggest YLG over Caspian.

And Cristian, fine set of gull images you have there!

JanJ

Yeh, this time I arrived there too late in the afternoon - the sun was at sunset, so the IQ is poor...

 

[lou salomon]

I think it´s difficult to be sure if the two YLG,s in post 799 are the same individual.
Then again the second bird with it´s long grey tongue on p9 and mid primaries might suggest Caspian. However pattern of primaries is whitin variation and a dark eye (looks large for Caspian) is not unknown in YLG, together with a strong bill and blunt tip and strong gonydeal angle would fit YLG better.
The one in post 800 looks like a YLG, but difficult to give a sensible description of.

JanJ

the 2 pics in #799 definitely show the same subadult (4 or 5cy) bird. it can be told by the weird p9 being wrongly placed under p10 in the right wing, usually p9 covers p10, p8 covers p9 and so on. you can see it in both images and both have dark eyes. i really don't know if it is caspian or yellow-legged but tend to agree with jan on YLG (as told, my initial impression also).

still: such a totally dark eyed YLG is absolutely rare in my experience (and looking at pics). legs should be a bit more shining yellow or orangey yellow even at this age and like jan said, ventral tongues in outer primaries are pretty long, while i think that this is exactly the border case of overlap. a 4th winter caspian can have such a pattern as well (small round p9 mirror but on both webs, shorter, diagonally running p10 tongue), though usually even a 4-5cy caspian looks longer 'tongued'.
- it should bear a ring on which it clearly states: "i'm a hybrid!" B

the 3cy from 800 also is not the typical YLG with its pale underside and dark eye, and yes it's the same bird in #806, see the same white undertail coverts. actually i can't tell if this is not a caspian gull without a small p10 mirror!?? it has pinkish/fleshy coloured legs.

btw. see the strong venetian blind effect in the 2nd bird # 796, jan (in the other thread on ID Q&A you meant it is more a caspian feature, but in the romanian birds i don't see much difference in inner primaries on average between micha and cachi, a lot of variation in both of course):
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=181761&d=1234647274 and
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=181762&d=1234647384

good examples of not so clear birds for the oncoming website, cristian!

 

[Cristian Mihai]

These are two poor pics with another bird - maybe a 4cy Caspian? Unfortunately I don't have any more pics with this bird...

 

[lou salomon]

4cy caspian is the best idea. see the pinkish legs, long tongues on p10 (but not as long as in an average adult!) and dark eyes. not all 3rd winters have such large traces of black in tail. gold grove, this dambovita place.

 

[lou salomon]

elimination series

i've got many pics in my collection with a question mark. even most of them already have been shown or discussed here i'd like to see if we can sort them out in the second instance now. starting with 1cy cachinnans.

1. i think i can turn this in a definite 1cy michahellis, i was thinking maybe a very strongly marked cachinnans since it was taken in a place where mostly caspian gulls are around. 3.9.2005 danube delta, e. vinckx (att.)

2. one of chris gibbin's pics, direct link is this: http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~geo399/oddities_files/image025.jpg labelled as cachinnans but i think this might be a slender michahellis.

3. this one could be a micha, not sure: http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~geo399/oddities_files/image035.jpg

4. (2nd pic attached) quite definite a young male cachinnans (23.10.2008 cristian)

5. (3.att.) also looks pretty perfect for caspian plumagewise (11.11.08 cristian)

6. (4. att.) bill looks good, female type. strong marked scaps. ?? (11.11.08 cristian)

7. (5.att.) looks bulky. male cachinnans? (2.12.08 cristian)

7.

 

[Cristian Mihai]

A few (poor) pics with (supposed) 2cy Yellow-legged Gulls (taken today feb 18). Chilly morning...brrrrr!

 

[lou salomon]

see the caspian head compilation here: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=134571

cristian's last pics are indeed all 2cy YLG (18.02.)

nobody going for the birds (1-7) in #812?

 

[lou salomon]

4cy caspian? or YLG

see attached

and chris' juveniles?

http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~geo399/oddities_files/image025.jpg

http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~geo399/oddities_files/image035.jpg

i think the first is a YLG and 2nd a cachinnans, more thoughts?

:cat:

 

[JANJ]

Hi Lou.

I would agree to the first of Gibbins gulls being a michahellis but I´m not sure if the other one is a cachinnans, but would at the same time make a note about that some juveniles are difficult to identify in images if we don´t see wing and tail pattern, which even then makes a few individuals difficult. We can´t put to much trust in the tertial pattern since it varies. The bill size and shape on nr 2 might suggest michahellis but could we exclude chachinnas. However the headshape suggests michahellis. but these are pure speculations judged from a single image, which is unwisable with individuals that don´t clinch immediately, or at least a few moments later.

No doubt here:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JXeDixaPw40/SNyiM-9zzZI/AAAAAAAAACo/1W4bxTAjvw0/s1600/829K6558web.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/slisch/image/101903804

http://www.pbase.com/slisch/image/101647682

http://www.pbase.com/slisch/image/83302138

http://www.pbase.com/slisch/image/81981919

19/8

http://www.artportalen.se/artportalen/gallery/images/swe/birds/2008/large/94296.jpg

13/8

http://www.artportalen.se/artportalen/gallery/images/swe/birds/2008/large/92820.jpg

same individual:

http://www.artportalen.se/artportalen/gallery/images/swe/birds/2008/large/92818.jpg

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

2cy baltic gull in germany (braunschweig) 17.02.2009

http://www.club300.de/fotos2/heringsmoewe927261.jpg
http://www.club300.de/fotos2/heringsmoewe927160.jpg

 

[Cristian Mihai]

Six (too) long shots with a group of five 2cy michahellis (Tineretului Park, Feb 23rd).

 

[Cristian Mihai]

Also some ridibundus in the first three pics (only about 10% are now in the summer plumage)...

 

[Ies Meulmeester]

Hi Lou.
I would agree to the first of Gibbins gulls being a michahellis

Hi Jan & Lou,

I'm also not sure about the identification of the first one as michahellis...
You're right that some points as the tertials fit michahellis better but the build and structure, very long legs especially the tibia's, the broad black tail-bar which doesn't show any tapering on the outer rectrices and the pattern on the inner greater coverts looks me more to juvenile cachinnans!

Tricky gull, I like to see a open wing of these!

This is what Chris wrote by the picture:
Bird 11. Presumably cachinnans but plumage a long way from the types exemplified by birds 3-6. Tertials offer no strong clues, being within the range of michahellis.

Ies