gulls (2 Viewers)

[lou salomon]

hi ies,

what is the character in the inner greater coverts that looks to you better for cachinnans? is it the more filigrane groundpattern with rather stripes than coarse patches/triangles? tibia doesn't look too long for me (and leg length anyhow varys a lot). to me it looks like a skinny michahellis but it's really hard to tell why. and of course i don't know it.

 

[Ies Meulmeester]

Hi Lou,

Difficult to explain, but the color of the 'stripes' is pale chocolate brownish, the dark brownish base of the outer greater coverts creating a dark 'triangle/bar', the unclear woolly patterns on the inner greater coverts and forms a fairly plain brownish whole without clear whitish patches/triangles with sharp cutting edges. This pattern remember me more to cachinnans but I know also that there's a lot of variation..! Certainly the tibia length doesn't to long for me but I think it fit cachinnans much better.

Ies

 

[lou salomon]

thanks ies. i see what you mean. possibly you're right.
what do you think about this bird from 11. august - structurally it really screams cachinnans but untill now i had put it as a long billed and upright standing michahellis like the surrounding gulls it is with. (black sea coast). both species have been photographed close to each other but this group somehow seemed to be formed monospecific by YLGs.
edit: in the background a 4cy (almost adult) YLG with slightly dark peppered iris and a slitlike nostril...

 

[JANJ]

As mentioned, some are rather tricky
I can though, agree with Ies about the slightly dark-based impression you get when looking at the second birds greater coverts, which remind more of cachinnans. However, the pattern of the second gull in question (which become more obvious if you move away a bit from the computer screen and close your eyes slightly), is shown by some michahellis as well, of course not the obvious way shown by many Caspian.
The pattern of the inner greater coverts mentioned by Ies, although not entierly incorrect, but not a feature to rely on, since variation is to be considered!
As Ies, I noted the tail band feature - but I can´t decide whether tis is a problem, since in certain images this is not always apparent, but a good point!
Regardless of the plumage features, I think the second gull has some michahellis structure, the stretched neck doens´t give the thin 'giraffe' impresssion your used to see in cachinnans.

Check these michahellis and note the mentioned features:

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/juvmic/p_bulg/index2.html

JanJ

 

[lou salomon]

As Ies, I noted the tail band feature - but I can´t decide whether tis is a problem, since in certain images this is not always apparent, but a good point!

Regardless of the plumage features, I think the second gull has some michahellis structure, the stretched neck doens´t give the thin 'giraffe' impresssion your used to see in cachinnans.

JanJ

tail band i found is really hard to asses in standing birds. the outer rectrice in all LWHG species has a white spot, seen in the present gull as well. and wide band is not so uncommon in juv michahellis. so we have to agree to disagree on both birds. 1st one voted 2:1 for michahellis, 2nd one voted 2:1 for cachinnans .:-C

 

[lou salomon]

advanced 2cy ylg

hi all,

thought i'd share cristian's pics of a 'slightly' odd michahellis (i think!) from today with almost adult like scaps. advanced bill colour as well.

 

[Ies Meulmeester]

thanks ies. i see what you mean. possibly you're right.
what do you think about this bird from 11. august - structurally it really screams cachinnans but untill now i had put it as a long billed and upright standing michahellis like the surrounding gulls it is with. (black sea coast). both species have been photographed close to each other but this group somehow seemed to be formed monospecific by YLGs.
edit: in the background a 4cy (almost adult) YLG with slightly dark peppered iris and a slitlike nostril...

This looks me also close to cachinnans Lou! The only thing with I have some trouble is the pattern on the new second generation scapulars which remember some to michahellis, but the pattern of the 'ancestor' or dark subterminal bars is indistinct a no clear contrast between black/grey markings and I remember me that the new scapulars are very fresh, regardless worn and not bleached.

Some reasons I think cachinnans are the build, structure, headshape and coloring(typical pale chocolate-milk brownish) of the upper-parts, long and small bill, woolly diffuse dark streaking in the lower hind-neck, the pattern of the white tips on the tertials and inner greater coverts, etc....

Ies

 

[JANJ]

I don´t remember what my comments where Lou on the Caspian Like gull from the 11 Aug. but I recognice it. Looking now - the structure and bill shape is strikingly Caspian like.
However, as mentoined by Ies, the scapular pattern is perhaps a bit troublesome, and also the advanced moult on 11 Aug. for Caspian. Structurally a good Caspian though, never seen a YLG with a bill like this.

Have a look at these good ones by the way:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/neubauerg

JanJ

 

[Tib78]

Hi all,

I just found this most interesting thread...quite a lot to learn there! Personnaly, I am mostly helpless when it comes to gulls...

I would like to hear your opinions about this gull. Pics taken in February (not by me), in Switzerland.

Thanks

 

[lou salomon]

it's a caspian, tib78. 2nd winter. nice p10 mirrors.

 

[Cristian Mihai]

Hi all,

I just found this most interesting thread...quite a lot to learn there! Personnaly, I am mostly helpless when it comes to gulls...

I would like to hear your opinions about this gull. Pics taken in February (not by me), in Switzerland.

Thanks

It is pretty similar with this one (feb 25th, Bucharest):t:

 

[Tib78]

Thank you both.

What about this one? Hybrid? Northern France, late October...

 

[Cristian Mihai]

Thank you both.

What about this one? Hybrid? Northern France, late October...

Wow, strange bird! Or simply a LBB Gull?

 

[Tib78]

Wow, strange bird! Or simply a LBB Gull?

I don't think so Cristian. This bird looks like a big brute: compare the size with the Herring in the 2nd pic (the observer says it was bigger than any Herring in the surroundings). And bill shape doesn't look right for LBBG...

But I agree on one point: it's a strange bird!

 

[Cristian Mihai]

I don't think so Cristian. This bird looks like a big brute: compare the size with the Herring in the 2nd pic (the observer says it was bigger than any Herring in the surroundings). And bill shape doesn't look right for LBBG...

But I agree on one point: it's a strange bird!

The bill dosn't look very well, I agree. But is really darker then the Herring and has long primaries projection. I would say that it has some LBB/GBB genes... Let's wait for some more opinions...

P.S. I don't have any experience with LLB Gulls. But, IMHO, head shape and the small eye look good for a GBB. Also the color of the legs. But, as I wrote before, the wings seems to be pretty long. I would also say that the color of the mantle looks better for a LBB.

 

[lou salomon]

very weird bird, tib. i think most likely a hybrid.
probably you know this essay of peter adriaens? : http://www.surfbirds.com/ID Articles/adriaensgulls21203.html
bird A in that article, a hybrid HG x YLG is darker than YLG! it has large tertial and scapular crescents, larger than in the parental species. i can't see this in your gull, but, surely it isn't a pure LBBG with that bill, size and leg colour. hard to estimate size of the scapular crescent in the back view, pic 3, but it may be larger than normal.

can't see GBBG at all in it, not with such long wings and elegant but powerfull body, wrong placement of eyes etc.
the small white primary tips may indicate that the retarded bill (and leg?) colour at least has some reason in its immaturity (an autumn 4cy type to my eyes, maybe 5cy).

if it wasn't for the colourless or pinkish legs i had said it looks best for YLG as one parent, structurally. bill is best for YLG, bulging breast and concentration of head streaking around eye might also point to michahellis, but: LBBG x YLG should have yellow legs at this age. remains LBBG x HG - structurally not a satisfying option...
well, i don't know what it is and it would be a little stretched to say it looks best for a 4cy YLG x LBBG with retarded bare part colours due to hormonal(?) disfunction. i suppose there's no shot with open wings? p5 mark could have given a hint.

thanks a lot for sharing!

 

[Tib78]

Thanks for your thoughts Lou...

probably you know this essay of peter adriaens? : http://www.surfbirds.com/ID Articles/adriaensgulls21203.html

No I didn't, thanks! You probably gave me the solution for another bird (see pic Gull 1 and 2). The darker appearance of this male while mating is not due to lighting condition. It was the darkest and the biggest gull in the surroundings according to the observer. It looks very close to this bird photographed by Ies Meulmeester (doesn't it?):
http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.php?actie=foto&subcatsub=319

remains LBBG x HG - structurally not a satisfying option...

I think so (hybrids can be so variable however). I also attached a pic of a presumed LBBG x Herring hybrid photographed in Calais by Edouard Dansette Feb 2008.

i suppose there's no shot with open wings? p5 mark could have given a hint.

Sadly not, no more shot available...This gull might remain a mystery....

Anyway, thanks Lou, thanks Cristian...I'll bring some new pics soon...

 

[Cristian Mihai]

Hi Tib78,

Hmm...Your bird has pinkish legs - the one photographed by Ies Meulmeester has pale yellow legs.

 

[Tib78]

Hi Cristian,

Well I am not too sure the legs colour is so different between those 2 gulls. If you compare the legs colour of the subject gull with the legs of the female Herring in the 2nd pic, they look quite different. And bear in mind the pics of Ies Meulmeester are top-quality photos, "mine" are not that good...it can influence our perception of colours.

Let's wait for the Expert's opinions

 

[Cristian Mihai]

Hi Cristian,

Well I am not too sure the legs colour is so different between those 2 gulls. If you compare the legs colour of the subject gull with the legs of the female Herring in the 2nd pic, they look quite different. And bear in mind the pics of Ies Meulmeester are top-quality photos, "mine" are not that good...it can influence our perception of colours.

Let's wait for the Expert's opinions

Could be a photographic artifact, I agree. BTW, it was only a humble remark Tib78. I'm not in the position to judge the relevance of this fact...