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gulls (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter lou salomon
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Tib78
Well-known member
Neither am I, my friend!! And just feel free to give your opinion anytime you want...I am certainly not better than you at identifying gulls!
One thing I know for sure is that the 2 of us don't have the experience of some "gulls fanatics" on the forum (like Lou, JanJ and Ies..not to name anyone
)Cheers
Edit: thanks for your last pic...
lou salomon
the birdonist
yes, hybrids can look so or so, some very close to one of the parents. the new bird differs from ies' bird in such that it has an unbroken but thin p5 mark and shows strange dark primary covert tips in form of drops (see the mating pic). either it is rel. young (5cy?) or/and this is due to its hybrid origin. i'd suggest HG x YLG since it has the powerfull look of a male michahellis (and small p9 mark, p5 mark). but who can be sure? those from belgium/holland/england where such hybrids occure should have more experience with them. merci for sharing and i'm looking forward to your next monsters. o
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lou salomon
the birdonist
some pontic gulls - today's pix from cristian
sorry if i bore you, but to me these 2 species (YLG and caspian) alone are worth publishing most of cris' pics on a separate website for comparison reasons. these pics from last 2 days, bucharest.
1. an adult cachinnans with large and apparently all white p9 tip
2. a 2cy - looks like a caspian but from this view bill looks short and blunt tipped. broad tail band with many stripe-like marks towards base of tail.
3. another candidate which i'm not really sure of (from today's evening)
4. nice 2cy cachinnans with strong window due to bleaching. see that belly sillhouette!
5. this wonderful shot of a pontic with feet protruding just under the feathers
and not to forget this one! http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=135163
pic: http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=183875&d=1235744295
thanks cristian,
cheers to you all gullers and deepest condolences to all who can't be at the international gull meeting in peterhead...
sorry if i bore you, but to me these 2 species (YLG and caspian) alone are worth publishing most of cris' pics on a separate website for comparison reasons. these pics from last 2 days, bucharest.
1. an adult cachinnans with large and apparently all white p9 tip
2. a 2cy - looks like a caspian but from this view bill looks short and blunt tipped. broad tail band with many stripe-like marks towards base of tail.
3. another candidate which i'm not really sure of (from today's evening)
4. nice 2cy cachinnans with strong window due to bleaching. see that belly sillhouette!
5. this wonderful shot of a pontic with feet protruding just under the feathers
and not to forget this one! http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=135163
pic: http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=183875&d=1235744295
thanks cristian,
cheers to you all gullers and deepest condolences to all who can't be at the international gull meeting in peterhead...
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Howard King
Guest
Have just spent this weekend (ours are Friday Saturday) looking for a Sooty Gull - our 5th record it is a species I have not seen myself here (see http://www.hawar-islands.com/blog/home_stub.php to view that). Unfortunately I couldn't find it but I did pop off a few shots of some of the gulls roosting in the same areas as the Sooty was seen - mostly are darker friends but there will be a few lighter ones thrown in for good luck. Shall put them up in groups. 1&2 3&4 are same birds in each pair 5 on its own - will put more up tomorrow
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lou salomon
the birdonist
great pics and good to see you here a again.
i think the 3 birds involved here are supposedly a
heuglin's (pic 1)
steppe (pic 2-4) and another
heuglin's
ok, just as suggestions of course. i'm not sure if 1 (heuglini) with a lot of alternate barepart coloration (stron yellow in bill and quite yellow leggs would'nt fit a barabensis either but see dark marks on primary coverts (some adults show it).
bird 2 has the look of a steppe gull
bird 3 is i think a 3cy siberian (heuglini) on built, leggy but strong
good pics of heuglin's gull on chris gibbins' blog in a recent entry here: http://chrisgibbins-gullsbirds.blogspot.com/
thnx for sharing your's howard - jan won't wait too long to see them.
i think the 3 birds involved here are supposedly a
heuglin's (pic 1)
steppe (pic 2-4) and another
heuglin's
ok, just as suggestions of course. i'm not sure if 1 (heuglini) with a lot of alternate barepart coloration (stron yellow in bill and quite yellow leggs would'nt fit a barabensis either but see dark marks on primary coverts (some adults show it).
bird 2 has the look of a steppe gull
bird 3 is i think a 3cy siberian (heuglini) on built, leggy but strong
good pics of heuglin's gull on chris gibbins' blog in a recent entry here: http://chrisgibbins-gullsbirds.blogspot.com/
thnx for sharing your's howard - jan won't wait too long to see them.
Howard King
Guest
lou salomon
the birdonist
melting pot is a good metaphora.
3cy heuglin's, ad steppe, heuglin's & steppe, heuglin's and steppe/heuglin's.
wonderful pics.
3cy heuglin's, ad steppe, heuglin's & steppe, heuglin's and steppe/heuglin's.
wonderful pics.
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lou salomon
the birdonist
primary pattern in 4cy YLG
the normal wingpattern in 3rd winter michahellis is defined by a mostly adult grey wing with clear dark markings on primary coverts, much black and little white in primary tips: usually very small white tips, black down to p4 (sometimes only p5) and a rectangled (longish) p10 mirror, no p9 mirror.
as opposite to YLG, caspian is having a larger p10 mirror and additionally a smaller mirror on p9 at this age (3rd gen. primaries). we have based many ids of this age type on this.
now i have several pics of birds that don't quite fit caspian gull, instead look like good YLGs, but they have a p9 mirror and a large p10 mirror, similar to 3d winter caspian. have a look at this bird from bucharest, 27.02.
my explanation is that these eastern (black sea) michahellises actually can have such a pattern since many adults approach caspian pattern in terms of mirror size and extension of black. but in that case many of our prior id's should be looked over and more incertainty is given :-C
i'm aware that the attached bird could be a retarded 4th winter/summer (5cy) with retained dark markings on primary coverts, thus maybe such a p pattern. however, most 5cy in spring look adult like.
cheers!
the normal wingpattern in 3rd winter michahellis is defined by a mostly adult grey wing with clear dark markings on primary coverts, much black and little white in primary tips: usually very small white tips, black down to p4 (sometimes only p5) and a rectangled (longish) p10 mirror, no p9 mirror.
as opposite to YLG, caspian is having a larger p10 mirror and additionally a smaller mirror on p9 at this age (3rd gen. primaries). we have based many ids of this age type on this.
now i have several pics of birds that don't quite fit caspian gull, instead look like good YLGs, but they have a p9 mirror and a large p10 mirror, similar to 3d winter caspian. have a look at this bird from bucharest, 27.02.
my explanation is that these eastern (black sea) michahellises actually can have such a pattern since many adults approach caspian pattern in terms of mirror size and extension of black. but in that case many of our prior id's should be looked over and more incertainty is given :-C
i'm aware that the attached bird could be a retarded 4th winter/summer (5cy) with retained dark markings on primary coverts, thus maybe such a p pattern. however, most 5cy in spring look adult like.
cheers!
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JANJ
Well-known member
Hi Lou Howard.
Nice gulls again Howard.
Trusting the upperpart tone to muchs not advisable here (and elsewhere), and structure is also difficult to be sure of - although I would tend to agree with Lou on his suggestions on species/ssp.
Have a look at these from Goa - which I think is nearly all barabensis, except for a few adult heuglini.
http://picasaweb.google.com/mark.seawatcher/GoaGullsNov08#
JanJ
Nice gulls again Howard.
Trusting the upperpart tone to muchs not advisable here (and elsewhere), and structure is also difficult to be sure of - although I would tend to agree with Lou on his suggestions on species/ssp.
Have a look at these from Goa - which I think is nearly all barabensis, except for a few adult heuglini.
http://picasaweb.google.com/mark.seawatcher/GoaGullsNov08#
JanJ
Howard King
Guest
JanJ a nice set of pictures from Goa however I thought that the colour on all was to light and weak too much white and not enough yellow Uncertain on no,s 41 43 and 44 - otherwise I though the vast majority the same as you said
Howard King
Guest
JANJ
Well-known member
Agree to the Caspian jizz, but some individuals of YLG and Caspian are quite similar, not to mention the occasional hybrid candidates that turns up, not saying that these are.
Also I assume these 1st winters where taken early autumn, Sept-Oct, but judging from the other accompanying gulls - which looks like Caspians perhaps later judging from advanced covert moult moult, often less advanced compared to YLG, but due to variation should be used in combination with other pro Caspian features. The gull in questiion looks pretty juvenile and there are some plumage features that stick out as non typical Caspian. Although slightly variable the tertial pattern has quite broad pale tips, which seems to be notched at the edges on the upper tertials, slightly difficult to get a detailed view from the image, usually more like this:
http://www.pbase.com/slisch/image/83302138
or this:
http://www.pbase.com/slisch/image/81981919
Greater covert pattern looks allright, with darker based feathers and paler towards the tips. The median and lesser coverts pattern with each feather somewhat notched gives the impression of a not so uniformly pattern usually seen in reasonable fresh juveniles/first winter Caspians, compare with the one in the last linked Caspian and this one from begining of Aug. Sweden but otherwise a good match:
http://www.artportalen.se/artportalen/gallery/images/swe/birds/2008/large/94296.jpg
and this presumed hybrid:
http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/JuvGull_Riga20080906.html
One of the features in the flight image that could raise some questions, is the seemingly all dark inner primaries and the heavy marked tips to the axillaries and the quite heavily marked undertail coverts, usually less marked undertail coverts in Caspian.
Note axillarie pattern on this one:
http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/Cac1cy_Tara20081019.html
The bottom line is that I think the other gulls might be Caspians on structure and bill shape - but I´m not sure if I can call the gull in question a pure Casipan, but I could be wrong of course!
JanJ
Also I assume these 1st winters where taken early autumn, Sept-Oct, but judging from the other accompanying gulls - which looks like Caspians perhaps later judging from advanced covert moult moult, often less advanced compared to YLG, but due to variation should be used in combination with other pro Caspian features. The gull in questiion looks pretty juvenile and there are some plumage features that stick out as non typical Caspian. Although slightly variable the tertial pattern has quite broad pale tips, which seems to be notched at the edges on the upper tertials, slightly difficult to get a detailed view from the image, usually more like this:
http://www.pbase.com/slisch/image/83302138
or this:
http://www.pbase.com/slisch/image/81981919
Greater covert pattern looks allright, with darker based feathers and paler towards the tips. The median and lesser coverts pattern with each feather somewhat notched gives the impression of a not so uniformly pattern usually seen in reasonable fresh juveniles/first winter Caspians, compare with the one in the last linked Caspian and this one from begining of Aug. Sweden but otherwise a good match:
http://www.artportalen.se/artportalen/gallery/images/swe/birds/2008/large/94296.jpg
and this presumed hybrid:
http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/JuvGull_Riga20080906.html
One of the features in the flight image that could raise some questions, is the seemingly all dark inner primaries and the heavy marked tips to the axillaries and the quite heavily marked undertail coverts, usually less marked undertail coverts in Caspian.
Note axillarie pattern on this one:
http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/Cac1cy_Tara20081019.html
The bottom line is that I think the other gulls might be Caspians on structure and bill shape - but I´m not sure if I can call the gull in question a pure Casipan, but I could be wrong of course!
JanJ
Tib78
Well-known member
Tack så mycket* Jan,
I am amazed what you can puzzle out of a picture...
I asked the observer if he could send me some better pics. I'll post them soon hopefully.
*I hope this is correct Swedish! I got this from my brother who works for Volvo and regularly travels to Sweden.
I am amazed what you can puzzle out of a picture...
I asked the observer if he could send me some better pics. I'll post them soon hopefully.
*I hope this is correct Swedish! I got this from my brother who works for Volvo and regularly travels to Sweden.
Cristian Mihai
Cristian Mihai
Hi everybody,
Today, March 9th, I took some pics with some michahellis and some cachinnans. First, two 3cy michahellis, then a 2cy michahellis with a very long bill, an adult cachinnans, and the last one, a 4cy michahellis (I think).
Today, March 9th, I took some pics with some michahellis and some cachinnans. First, two 3cy michahellis, then a 2cy michahellis with a very long bill, an adult cachinnans, and the last one, a 4cy michahellis (I think).
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lou salomon
the birdonist
the swiss 1cy
hello tib, jan, cristian!
cristian, you are right in all id-s from dambovitza canal your new camera seems to be a real improvement!
tib, this gull from switzerland is of course an unusual individual and not at all straightfort imo. i hesitated posting (lack of time also to study it intensively) due to many inconsistancies shown, though i think we can narrow it down to michahellis and cachinnans (long wings, elegant body shape, not a graellsii). incidently this is the species pair in LWHG of which i have most experience, still a bunch of them remain tricky to id.
it is very brown for both sp. at the time taken, 17.08. from exif data. no visible moult in scapulars is unusual as well as such intensively dark head coloration (with a strong emphasis on eye smudge), usually they look like this one month earlier. possibly a central european (or polish?) and thus late hatched bird. see the accompanying same aged gulls with mostly whitish heads. the overall strong pigmentation is apparent in unusually dark underparts and i think in reduced pale inner webs to inner primaries (nothing to see of venetian blind in the flying view but wing is not stretched.
briefly, i agree that all the birds have somewhat of a caspian look in these (small) images with their apparently thin and pointed bills. still i believe they are yellow-legged gulls including the dark one, jan's first instinctive reaction.
bills all look the same length, none really male caspian long.
bills in juv gulls still grow and are slimmer than those of adults.
structure is better for michahellis to my eyes.
none of the present birds has the "typical" plain two-toned greater covert pattern, to me they are more in line with YLG, even though showing paler tips, a common feature in young YLG as well, (but a bit different usually).
last but not least the strong pigmentation is seen in the underwing on axilliaries and coverts, very plain dark for cachinnans (but possible) and undertail coverts (still not excluding caspian). the plain brown scapulars and (to my eyes) also rel. plain lesser and median coverts however are pretty strange.
ergo i'm more inclined towards YLG for all of them, but better or at least more pics could help us further.
hello tib, jan, cristian!
cristian, you are right in all id-s from dambovitza canal
your new camera seems to be a real improvement!tib, this gull from switzerland is of course an unusual individual and not at all straightfort imo. i hesitated posting (lack of time also to study it intensively) due to many inconsistancies shown, though i think we can narrow it down to michahellis and cachinnans (long wings, elegant body shape, not a graellsii). incidently this is the species pair in LWHG of which i have most experience, still a bunch of them remain tricky to id.
it is very brown for both sp. at the time taken, 17.08. from exif data. no visible moult in scapulars is unusual as well as such intensively dark head coloration (with a strong emphasis on eye smudge), usually they look like this one month earlier. possibly a central european (or polish?) and thus late hatched bird. see the accompanying same aged gulls with mostly whitish heads. the overall strong pigmentation is apparent in unusually dark underparts and i think in reduced pale inner webs to inner primaries (nothing to see of venetian blind in the flying view but wing is not stretched.
briefly, i agree that all the birds have somewhat of a caspian look in these (small) images with their apparently thin and pointed bills. still i believe they are yellow-legged gulls including the dark one, jan's first instinctive reaction.
bills all look the same length, none really male caspian long.
bills in juv gulls still grow and are slimmer than those of adults.
structure is better for michahellis to my eyes.
none of the present birds has the "typical" plain two-toned greater covert pattern, to me they are more in line with YLG, even though showing paler tips, a common feature in young YLG as well, (but a bit different usually).
last but not least the strong pigmentation is seen in the underwing on axilliaries and coverts, very plain dark for cachinnans (but possible) and undertail coverts (still not excluding caspian). the plain brown scapulars and (to my eyes) also rel. plain lesser and median coverts however are pretty strange.
ergo i'm more inclined towards YLG for all of them, but better or at least more pics could help us further.
