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gulls (2 Viewers)

p wolf

Sleep is the Enemy
Hi Lou.

Conserning Peters gull - well it looks like a heuglini - but which form in Thailand one could ask - could be western heuglini though.

http://www.praktejder.se/resor/Thailand-07/West-Siberian Gull.htm

The Dutch Birding bird - is that a gull - looks more like a Tern of some sort.

JanJ

Hi Jan,

first of all, your a hard man to get hold of since your PM box is full, i may have clogged it up..

Peters gull: i guess nobody really knows what winters in Thailand but this one looks odd for a Western heuglini, i would not have expected black on p4 but i'm sure one of the GRO members involved with heuglini may be able to shed some light. I still hope that one day some daring soul will start putting colour-rings on chicks but it will be a hell of a job.

I'd say the Dutch Birding bird is not a gull...

cheers, pim
 

lou salomon

the birdonist
yes, looks more ternish...
why shouldn't western heuglini don't have black down to p4. as far as i remember many if not most have such extensive black pattern, some even on p3 (ad of course). not that i have seen one for real :C, but looked at many pics.
 

p wolf

Sleep is the Enemy
yes, looks more ternish...
why shouldn't western heuglini don't have black down to p4. as far as i remember many if not most have such extensive black pattern, some even on p3 (ad of course). not that i have seen one for real :C, but looked at many pics.

you're right of course, typical brainfart. For a long time all i knew about heuglini came from the pics in Visa Rauste's Limicola paper but Buzun already wrote that only 5% had the black limited to p10-5...

Apart from that, do we know what winters in Thailand? I know next to nothing about gulls in southern Asia but does anyone have any real idea?

pim
 

lou salomon

the birdonist
i don't think so...there aren't that many though wintering in southern asia, barabensis and heuglini regularly only to the half of indian subcontinent, pallas's of course, but then - if one considers the vast breeding range of taimyrensis - where do all they winter? mostly on pacific coast proabably.

ringing many of them would take more than 10 years...too spread around the tundra, it's not like in amsterdam...

well, about the bird from austria:
visa rauste's comment: "Even if my attitude to the identification of heuglini "outside its normal range" is very cautious, I think this bird is almost as good candidate for that taxon as I can imagine. The structure could be heavier but I cannot see any significant difference as compared to Russian or Finnish heuglinis on the above-mentioned pages, and in any case, heuglini is very variable also structurally."

and ruud's comment: "no, 2cy graellsii/intermedius doesn‘t look like that. Or to put it another way: if I would ever find a ringed western LBBG looking like this I would stop searching for heuglini!
Occasionally we find 2cy birds in autumn that still carry juvenile primaries. If you look hard enough you will probably find a bird with this pale, slightly bluish grey feathers. But I‘ve never seen a western LBBG so strongly resembling Caspian Gull -- unless you are convinced that http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/heuglini2b.html is a western bird. But if you add those three things up I think you can safely say that this is NOT a graellsii/intermedius.
So I would say: congratulations, a very nice find!
"

- the bird was documented by Wolfgang Schweighofer in Wörth.
 
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Micky

Well-known member
I was away over Christmas & New Year - here's the gull I posted in it's full glory Micky was right!

1st sum RL Kit from July last year.

Have no idea what that Dutch Birding bird is - except maybe a common tern with bizarrely black outer primaries??!!

Cheers,
Andrew

Hi Andrew,

thanks for posting the whole thing, great bird I'd love to see one someday :t:

All the best,

Micky.
 

p wolf

Sleep is the Enemy
and a bird from belorusia. ringed as argentatus but birds with cachinnans characters are said to occure in that colony, what do you think? (also from wörth, austria, wolfgang schweighofer)

assuming that the pic was taken in 2007 i can still call it a 3cy argentatus. I don't see that much wrong with it for L.a. argentatus, although the whitish head combined with that shawl gives it a cach-like look. Bulky bird, snouty look, limited covert/tertial moult small mirror on p10.

cheers, pim
 

lou salomon

the birdonist
hi,

being in a hurry i just wanted to ask your ideas on this very dark 1st winter, also from bucharest these days, pic taken by ciprian fantana. quality is miserable but: is it possible for michahellis to be still so dark? i venture a guess more towards argentatus which would be a rare apparition. i'll come back to the arg. from belorus also..

cheers
 

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lou salomon

the birdonist
assuming that the pic was taken in 2007 i can still call it a 3cy argentatus. I don't see that much wrong with it for L.a. argentatus, although the whitish head combined with that shawl gives it a cach-like look. Bulky bird, snouty look, limited covert/tertial moult small mirror on p10.

cheers, pim

snouty is not bad for cachi. as are the flat back, shawl, hanging bum, mirror on p10 and long primary projection. possibly a hybrid though?
 

JANJ

Well-known member
Hello All.
Lou - the Gull in post 149 could perhaps be either Caspian or Herring - with structure and pattern that could look good for a 2/3cy Caspian. As Pim noted the tiny pale mirror on p10 suggest Caspian

http://www.helsinki.fi/~rauste/gulls/hannu10.html

The heuglini (mess) is worth a section of it´s own, and I admire those who try to sort some of it out - like Ruud Visa Hannu and others on 2cy!

http://www.gull-research.org/heuglini-id/

and here:

http://www.elisanet.fi/hj.koskinen/index.html

Adult heuglini in the Middle East - Dec - Jan - feb March is often quite straigt forward when you compare them with barabensis but some are more difficult.

I suppose you can spot the heuglini: (note the moult score in primaries)

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=10763

Note amount of dark marked primaries:

http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/OmanGulls/heugliniF2.htm

http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/OmanGulls/heugliniF3.htm

Perhaps some paler heuglini (by some still called 'taimyrensis' and suggested by Yésou (2001) as an invalid taxon (heuglini x vegae?) (- and suggested by some to occur in the middle East and eastern Africa in winter) could be barabensis.

http://www23.tok2.com/home/jgull/OmanGulls/index.html

http://www.pbase.com/dophoto/zafferanosiberiano&page=all

http://www.pbase.com/dophoto/gabbianodelcaspio

Note the primary moult score in the presumed barabensis compared to most heuglini in Danieles great images.

Just to show some of Kims gulls from S.Korea:

http://www2.kongju.ac.kr/srcho/pintail/2006/feb/2006020203.htm

http://sath.hs.kr/pintail/2004/feb/022904.htm

(http://www.xs4all.nl/~calidris/yellowdark.htm)

JanJ
 
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AStevenson

Well-known member
As a break from the LWH gulls what do you make of this chap - is there a hint of Kumlien's in it or not?

Cheers,
Andrew
 

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p wolf

Sleep is the Enemy
Hello All.
Lou - the Gull in post 149 could perhaps be either Caspian or Herring - with structure and pattern that could look good for a 2/3cy Caspian. As Pim noted the tiny pale mirror on p10 suggest CaspianJanJ

well, i really thought the mirror on p10 was far to small for a 3cy Caspian...

pim
 

JANJ

Well-known member
well, i really thought the mirror on p10 was far to small for a 3cy Caspian...

pim

We don´t have a date to when the gull is taken - late 2007 as a 2cy or early 2008 as a 3cy, but judging from plumage type it looks like a 2nd winter 2 or 3cy and in any case born in 2006.

This 2nd winter (2cy, soon to be 3cy) shows a small mirror, slightly larger than the subject gull:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~calidris/caspian5w2.htm

or these:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~calidris/caspian3w2.htm

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=14397

Late 3cy (3rd winter) 2nd wing moult or 3rd generation primaries

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=13768

Need a date Lou!

JanJ
 

lou salomon

the birdonist
http://www.forumromanum.de/member/f...entryid=1102339462&USER=user_70085&threadid=2

for those who can read german.
6.01.2008 is the date the photo is taken.

i didn't read carefully. it says this is a bird from belorus. for him (wolfgang) a cachinnans. he had a similar bird 2 years ago from belorus ringed as argentatus that he also considered a cachinnans, couldn't take a photo and that one was from a colony with birds showing cachinnans features.
but i think the same applies to this bird, it could be a pure caspian or a hybrid, maybe even an argentatus showing many caspian features - i remember panov/manzikov's paper about intergradation between cachinnans and argentatus in russia where it says that the more northerly the colonies where the more they applied for full argentatus criteria (including voice, phenotyp and DNA), same goes southerly for cachinnans. so there might be a broad intergradation zone in russia even if this seems to contradict that they are only far related (helbig, liebers etc). poland and belorus might be in this intergradation zone or is it just a zone with relative frequent hybridization? i don't know.
 

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