Harrier and wheatear (?) -- Geiseltalsee, Germany (1 Viewer)

[Henry_Flower]

Can anyone help with a couple of IDs from a visit last week to Geiseltalsee (lake surrounded by fields) in Germany?

The first I think is a hen harrier (rather than Pallid or Montagu's) -- I'm not familiar with the other harriers, but I gather five fingers rather than four rules them out?



The second is an unfortunately very windy recording -- Merlin suggested Northern Wheatear, which fits for the area, but it doesn't sound very much like the recordings I've heard. Is it possible to ID based on the recording?

Edited to add: sorry, one more from the same time and area but very distant -- I initially assumed this was a marsh harrier, but the dark head and white chest don't seem to fit?

 

[tconzemi]

Hen Harrier and Common Buzzard

 

[TheBlackGrouse]

The recording sounds more like a Reed Bunting. Where was the sound coming from?

Northern Wheatears rest on open ground (sand, grass, stones), they sit on a rock or a fallen tree, sometimes in a small bush. Reed Buntings are found in reed beds, sometimes in small bushes too. They may sing while hidden in the reed, a singing Northern Wheatear is always visible.

 

[Henry_Flower]

The recording sounds more like a Reed Bunting. Where was the sound coming from?

Northern Wheatears rest on open ground (sand, grass, stones), they sit on a rock or a fallen tree, sometimes in a small bush. Reed Buntings are found in reed beds, sometimes in small bushes too. They may sing while hidden in the reed, a singing Northern Wheatear is always visible.

This was at the top end of a vineyard/tree plantation area on a slope above the lake. No reeds within 100m or so. I scanned the tree frames and wires of the vineyard, but saw no sign of the bird.

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello,

can a Whinchat be excluded here?
Yes, they normally sing slightly more melodious (sometimes even Thrush like), but they are so variable and regular include imitations.

I cant exclude a Stonechat with confidence. And not only for the usual reasons, but also/mainly while their song is regular short and scratchy, they can add melodius whistles.

But my gut feeling was similar like in the field: if I hear one of those two singing, than I offen recognize a Stonechat faster/with more confidence. While a Whinechat regular makes me think "hey whats that?", and then try to find the bird.

Yes, this comment came out more confident then it is intended to be. And after hearing recordings of Northern Wheatear on xenocanto, I realised that I havent much experience whith their songs.

So I hope like always for comments. Thanks!

 

[Henry_Flower]

Hello,

can a Whinchat be excluded here?
Yes, they normally sing slightly more melodious (sometimes even Thrush like), but they are so variable and regular include imitations.

I cant exclude a Stonechat with confidence. And not only for the usual reasons, but also/mainly while their song is regular short and scratchy, they can add melodius whistles.

But my gut feeling was similar like in the field: if I hear one of those two singing, than I offen recognize a Stonechat faster/with more confidence. While a Whinechat regular makes me think "hey whats that?", and then try to find the bird.

Yes, this comment came out more confident then it is intended to be. And after hearing recordings of Northern Wheatear on xenocanto, I realised that I havent much experience whith their songs.

So I hope like always for comments. Thanks!

There were certainly stonechats nearby (I saw them a few minutes later), so that might fit.

 

[TheBlackGrouse]

Maybe it's my speaker but I hear some slow hesitant phrases, like a Reed Bunting does. However, with this heavy wind on the recording, the timbre may fit a Northern Wheatear too. It has a variable song, from fast and scratchy like a Whitethroat to melodic like a Bluethroat. The recording is from Germany, possibly they sound different there.

 

[01101001]

BirdNET very tentatively suggests Crested Lark; Wheatear only after that. Maybe the songster could somehow be identified by the kind of calls that are weaved into the song (if anyone can recognise them -- not me!)? I guess you don't have a longer recording (wouldn't help me anyway but, maybe, someone else).

 

[Henry_Flower]

I guess you don't have a longer recording

Not very helpfully, I think -- here's the full recording I made, with more wind and not much else!

 

[TheBlackGrouse]

Not very helpfully, I think -- here's the full recording I made, with more wind and not much else!

The very faint and faster scratchy part at the end might be of a Wheatear. The Chats have more melody in their songs. Especially the Stonechat is not hesitating, it sings fluently. The noise of the wind is terrible, if someone says it starts with a Reed Bunting and ends with a Whitethroat, he could be right. No offense of course, you have a recording, that matters

 

[lou salomon]

apart from the wind I only hear a distant Reed Bunting.

 

[TheBlackGrouse]

apart from the wind I only hear a distant Reed Bunting.

That's what I hear too but at the end there is a barely audible faster phrase, more scratchy, that part doesn't sound like a typical Reed Bunting.