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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tib78" data-source="post: 3290070" data-attributes="member: 71118">Andy,I never typed "never reaching the gape" anywhere in this thread. And I don't even need to double-check my posts since I know all too well that the cheek-patch reaches the gape in many juvenile Montagu's harriers...On the other hand, the cheek-patch reaching the malar area/base of the lower mandible is not common at all in juv Monty's (but it happens!), and paler headed individual are even less prone to show this feature.The bird in your link is a typical Montagu's in every respect and I don't understand what you might see in that bird that would encourage me to reconsider the ID of the Northumberland bird.You are welcome to quote me any time but, please, if you do, do it sensibly. The original sentence was: The word "combination" is the key to understand what I meant there. To sum-up:- juv Monty's with pale head (pale crown and nape) are common- juv Monty's with the dark-cheek patch reaching the malar area are scarce- juv Monty's showing the combination of the 2 above features are, at the very least, extremely rare (I am not even sure I have ever seen one...)Makes sense?*hand: the word was mistakenly omitted in my original postLike Owen said it's the same bird on both pics and it's very clearly a Montagu's!Thanks for the link Jan. Unfortunately I am not able to open it for some reasons ( I am currently in Tanzania and my connexion is not great...). I'll have a look as soon as I'll be home.This bird looks certainly closer to Montagu's and, in any case, can't be labelled as Pallid. But I would not labelled this bird as a pure Montagu's so quickly. What I found very eye-catching first time round is the face pattern: there is something very Pallid-like in that face expression...At the risk of repeating myself: the supercilium does not wrap aound the back of the eye; the sub-ocular crescent is much wider than the supercilium and "digs" deep into the cheek-patch (almost dividing it into 2 halves). And note the pattern of the primaries and especially the inner hand: its trailing edge is rahter pale (much paler than the bars, very unusual for a fresh 1cy autumn Monty's...). Even the outer primaries have a pattern that is rather weird for Montagu's...</blockquote>

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