Help choosing a swarovski (1 Viewer)

[WarblerWhisperer]

Hello everyone,

I am currently trying to decide on a new scope and am leaning very heavily toward either the ATX 85 or 95. I could really use your help making the choice. I’ve extensively used a family members older ATS 80… honestly I don’t know if it’s the HD or not. I’ve always loved the scope. To give you some context, here’s how I think about a scope in my birding:

I find myself typically using it for gulls, shorebirds, ducks/scanning water, raptors, etc. rarely for passerines in general unless I’m intentionally looking for a specific rarity or target species. So if I’m out searching for species X I will bring the scope. But if it’s a great general migration day for a mix of warblers and other passerines or if I’m birding in a largely forested area I usually will leave the scope in the car. I find myself usually using the scope more often in open settings like plains/grasslands, beaches, shorelines/coastal areas, wetlands, etc. I typically find myself using the scope at the lower end of the magnification range for scanning water and then go up to the mid range or upper mid range of the magnification to maximize clarity and brightness once I find a bird of interest. I often find myself wanting to zoom in to the max magnification but usually back off from this due to image softening or lack of brightness or even just heat shimmer. I sometimes walk a mile or two or three with the scope. Rarely more than that… if it gets farther than that I’ll usually skip the scope.

For what it’s worth, in general I tend to be fairly picky about my optics and really appreciate the subtle quality differences that can be achieved in high end optics.

Given this, can anyone who has experience with these scopes point me in the direction that might be best? I imagine the 115 is way, way over kill so I’m not really considering that one, though it is intriguing in concept

THEN ALSO…. obviously im having a lot of trouble deciding, but this is even more complicated by the fact that these models at this point are both so old. I know the improvements in a new release would likely only be marginal, but does anyone know how often Swarovski typically releases new scopes? I’d hate to buy a brand new one just before an updated model is released. And it feels like it should be about time, perhaps?
Appreciate your help.

 

[forent]

(...) I typically find myself using the scope at the lower end of the magnification range for scanning water and then go up to the mid range or upper mid range of the magnification to maximize clarity and brightness once I find a bird of interest. I often find myself wanting to zoom in to the max magnification but usually back off from this due to image softening or lack of brightness or even just heat shimmer. I sometimes walk a mile or two or three with the scope. (...)
I imagine the 115 is way, way over kill so I’m not really considering that one, though it is intriguing in concept

THEN ALSO…. obviously im having a lot of trouble deciding, but this is even more complicated by the fact that these models at this point are both so old. I know the improvements in a new release would likely only be marginal, but does anyone know how often Swarovski typically releases new scopes? I’d hate to buy a brand new one just before an updated model is released. And it feels like it should be about time, perhaps? (...)

Considering your information above I would recommend the ATX 85. A really, really great scope, noticeable more compact than the 95 or the giant 115, starting with 25X instead of 30x, capable of low-light viewing. As an alternative you could look at the also great Kowa TSN-883. To me, an ATX 95 or 115 makes more sense if you plan to add a 65 lens module sooner or later.
Concerning "new releases": Of course I have not the faintest idea but I seriously doubt that Swarovski would replace the successful and modern ATX series in the near future. And you could lose several years with waiting: Just imagine how many years the Kowa fans have been waiting for an update of the legendary 883, introduced not less than 15 years ago, which I still dare to recommend these days...

 

[Bill Atwood]

As forent mentioned, the ATX 85 is probably a good choice especially if the extra 70x of the ATX 95 isn't that important to you.

Compared to the older alphas like the ATS 80, the newer ones (ATX/STX, 883/884) are quite sharp and bright at the max powers. The views at 60x or 70x are largely limited by atmospheric conditions, not the optics. Also the Kowa 1.6x & Swaro 1.7 extenders work very well and I've no hesitation to crank them to the max if the viewing conditions allow. One downside of the new alphas is that they are often larger and heavier and usually require a more sturdy head than the old standby Manfrotto 128RC. The ATX/STX 65 and Kowa 773/774 are smaller and roughly the same weight as the ATS 80.

An under the radar scope to consider is the Meopta Meostar S2. It has and 82mm objective; 20x-70x and 30x-60xWA eyepieces are available. It's foot fits into the 128RC without using the execrable mounting plate. I've no hesitation about cranking it up to 70x. Optically it's not quite as good as the ATX95 or 883, but the difference is very, very slim. I've tried the 883 and currently also own an ATX95. Currently the S2 is my choice. The ATX is optically the best, but I despise its ergonomics. It is somehow more bulky than its size and weight specs, perhaps it's the King Tiger tank build of the eyepiece section. Ditched the 883 since it didn't provide 70x available with the S2. I tried living with the 1.6x permanently in place but couldn't get by with the lower FOV at 40x. Even though it's bigger than I like I'll probably give the new Kowa 99X a shot after some reviews (and hopefully some sale prices) are available.

I agree with forent regarding new releases and continued suitablity of current ones. Swarovski and Kowa have been tweaking their lineups rather than replacing them. Kowa is adding a 99mm objective designed for 30x-70x which competes more directly with the ATX/STX95. Swaro just added the monster 115mm ATX/STX objective, since apparently bigger is better. Prior to that they introduced the BTX bino eyepiece. Leica is probably the alpha manufacturer most due for a new model.

 

[Tringa45]

Often less is more, and I think that the situations in which you would profit from the greater FoV and depth of field of 25x as against the minimum 30x of the ATX95 are going to be far more frequent than the extremely rare instances where 70x could be of use.
Heat haze and/or the loss of brightness caused by small exit pupils are often going to put a limit to maximum magnification, and weight and cost are also factors that cannot be ignored.
Btw, I think Bill is trying to provoke me with his repeated mentions of the Manfrotto 128RC. I think it's rubbish and would elaborate on that if anyone's interested .

John

 

[Bill Atwood]

Curses!!! John has discovered my evil plan. I will never recover from this.

 

[Jason Bugay Reyes]

Hello everyone,

I am currently trying to decide on a new scope and am leaning very heavily toward either the ATX 85 or 95. I could really use your help making the choice. I’ve extensively used a family members older ATS 80… honestly I don’t know if it’s the HD or not. I’ve always loved the scope. To give you some context, here’s how I think about a scope in my birding:

I find myself typically using it for gulls, shorebirds, ducks/scanning water, raptors, etc. rarely for passerines in general unless I’m intentionally looking for a specific rarity or target species. So if I’m out searching for species X I will bring the scope. But if it’s a great general migration day for a mix of warblers and other passerines or if I’m birding in a largely forested area I usually will leave the scope in the car. I find myself usually using the scope more often in open settings like plains/grasslands, beaches, shorelines/coastal areas, wetlands, etc. I typically find myself using the scope at the lower end of the magnification range for scanning water and then go up to the mid range or upper mid range of the magnification to maximize clarity and brightness once I find a bird of interest. I often find myself wanting to zoom in to the max magnification but usually back off from this due to image softening or lack of brightness or even just heat shimmer. I sometimes walk a mile or two or three with the scope. Rarely more than that… if it gets farther than that I’ll usually skip the scope.

For what it’s worth, in general I tend to be fairly picky about my optics and really appreciate the subtle quality differences that can be achieved in high end optics.

Given this, can anyone who has experience with these scopes point me in the direction that might be best? I imagine the 115 is way, way over kill so I’m not really considering that one, though it is intriguing in concept

THEN ALSO…. obviously im having a lot of trouble deciding, but this is even more complicated by the fact that these models at this point are both so old. I know the improvements in a new release would likely only be marginal, but does anyone know how often Swarovski typically releases new scopes? I’d hate to buy a brand new one just before an updated model is released. And it feels like it should be about time, perhaps?
Appreciate your help.

Your way of birding is exactly the same as mine and I decided to get the 65 and 95mm ATX/STX. Used to have the 50, 82 and 85mm Nikon, the increased of glass sizes with the Swarovski, it really helps me in getting better images while digiscoping plus observing with the scopes in a low light conditions. My friend has the 85mm and he likes it so much too.

 

[WarblerWhisperer]

Thank you, all. This is incredibly helpful information - I appreciate all of the perspectives shared. I think that the point that the lack of a wider field of view when scanning (thereby potentially missing birds and/or making it take much longer to cover a given area) is a real potential problem, whereas extra zoom on the long end is a nice to have for sure but rarely would cause one to miss a bird or be truly unable to make an ID. And in that case, what kind of a look would it be anyway, right?

So this seems to be pushing me toward the 85.

The concept of a 65 plus a 95 is intriguing, but the cost is (obviously) far greater and I’m not really prepared to buy both right now. Perhaps eventually… I wouldn’t rule it out… but I have to wonder…. Is the 65 plus 95 combo THAT much better than just the 85? And is the 65 THAT much worse than the 85? I wish I could go somewhere and look through all these together, but part of me wonders if it’s really worth it to buy a 65 and a 95 vs just split the difference and go with a single 85.

I do appreciate the suggestions of the kowa and the meopta. I’ve never heard of the meopta though I have heard great things about kowa so I’ll have to research those both a bit more too.

 

[WarblerWhisperer]

And in a way…. The more I think about it…. It almost feels like, if one were to ever get two scopes… perhaps it would make more sense to get the 85 and one day the 115 for seawatching and long distance scoping when right by the car. Because it seems like if you had two the 65 would always leave you disappointed… like “oh man why didn’t I just bring the 85 or 95”.

 

[Jason Bugay Reyes]

Thank you, all. This is incredibly helpful information - I appreciate all of the perspectives shared. I think that the point that the lack of a wider field of view when scanning (thereby potentially missing birds and/or making it take much longer to cover a given area) is a real potential problem, whereas extra zoom on the long end is a nice to have for sure but rarely would cause one to miss a bird or be truly unable to make an ID. And in that case, what kind of a look would it be anyway, right?

So this seems to be pushing me toward the 85.

The concept of a 65 plus a 95 is intriguing, but the cost is (obviously) far greater and I’m not really prepared to buy both right now. Perhaps eventually… I wouldn’t rule it out… but I have to wonder…. Is the 65 plus 95 combo THAT much better than just the 85? And is the 65 THAT much worse than the 85? I wish I could go somewhere and look through all these together, but part of me wonders if it’s really worth it to buy a 65 and a 95 vs just split the difference and go with a single 85.

I do appreciate the suggestions of the kowa and the meopta. I’ve never heard of the meopta though I have heard great things about kowa so I’ll have to research those both a bit more too.

I used the 65mm mostly for longer walk in the rainforest and it is more than enough for me to ID birds with my clients plus I planned where to go on different habitats, so I used those scopes according to the habitat etc.

If I could choose only one scope, I will get the 95mm because I do a lot of digiscoping and the extra shutter speed while shooting in low light is important for me. But u couldn't go wrong with the 85mm as well. If you get the 85mm, in the future you can add the 65mm objective lens module or maybe the 115mm

Whitehead's Trogon

ISO 800, 1/15s shutter speed at 30x with the STX95mm at Mt. Kinabalu. If I used the 65mm that time, I don't think I could get sharp images because it was late in the afternoon and a bit windy.

Whitehead's Trogon

 

[WarblerWhisperer]

Wow, horukuru - that’s a magnificent image of that Trogon. Thanks for sharing.
I don’t do much digiscoping so I’m not as worried about that (though maybe I should start after seeing your image 😂). But seriously I’m most concerned with the image to my eye vs digiscoping. So I’m thinking the 85 probably is the best option, at least if I want to go with swarovski that is.

if you had the 85, would you also get the 65, or do you just have the 65 because the 95 is so huge?

 

[Jason Bugay Reyes]

Wow, horukuru - that’s a magnificent image of that Trogon. Thanks for sharing.
I don’t do much digiscoping so I’m not as worried about that (though maybe I should start after seeing your image 😂). But seriously I’m most concerned with the image to my eye vs digiscoping. So I’m thinking the 85 probably is the best option, at least if I want to go with swarovski that is.

if you had the 85, would you also get the 65, or do you just have the 65 because the 95 is so huge?

Thanks 😂 I really missed going back to the mountain because of the current lockdown.

From what I remembered, the size of 85 and 95mm is not that much. My friends (both are bird guides) with their 65mm is happy with it and they does digiscoping sometimes with his phone in the rainforest for documentation purposes such as Orang Utan building nest, or Rhinoceros Hornbill calling from the canopy etc. He told me the weight difference between the 65, 85 and 95mm for him, he chose the 65mm for easy carrying.

Check this work by Tara Tanaka Tara Tanaka Digiscoped Photography. She uses the STX85 for digiscoping.

(if you had the 85, would you also get the 65, or do you just have the 65 because the 95 is so huge?)

I will get the 115mm module if funding allows me 🤤

 

[forent]

(...) if you had the 85, would you also get the 65, or do you just have the 65 because the 95 is so huge?

I'm not horukuru, but I'd like to answer as I own the 65/95 ATX combo. In contrast to some I started with the 65 to get a portable scope and added the 95 later (an impulse buying to be honest ). I am very happy with them and both lenses get their uses but if I had aquired the 85 first I would never have bought a second lens module because the 85 is such a nice compromise, visibly brighter than the 65 and noticeably smaller than the 95. The only disadvantage of the 85 in my view is that it is slightly back-heavy but a suitable quick release plate under the original foot does away with that.

 

[WarblerWhisperer]

Thank you, Forent - that helps a ton.

So… while I still need to check out the kowa and the meopta…. Let’s say I decide to go with the atx 85. What legs/head do you all recommend? I have a strong preference for carbon fiber due to weight savings and increased comfort handling the legs in cold conditions. I also tend to prefer at least three sections for packing in a suitcase when traveling.

I’m not trying to break the bank with the most overbuilt tripod and head available, but the absolute last thing I want to do is degrade the image out of one of the finest scopes currently made by mounting it on a sub-par set of legs and head. So I welcome all suggestions on what makes sense. Not trying to skimp here… want to get what’s right.

btw… I should perhaps mention… I do a lot of photography and I already own an older set of gitzo legs… the Gitzo GT3540LS.
Wonder if I should just use these with the scope and only buy a new head for the scope, or if a different set of legs would make more sense for the scope. And at the risk of bringing eye rolls from some of you 😀, I do often bird with people of various heights and so the lack of a center column on my gitzo does give me a bit of concern…. Yes… I know…. Why put a fancy scope on a fancy tripod and then turn it into a monopod…. Maybe I should just go birding alone and solve these problems! Or buy two or three scopes??? 😀 but I digress….

 

[Bill Atwood]

Given an opportunity I'd to look into what your birding friends are using.

Concerning tripods, the vast majority of birders use a tripod with a center column. The legs w/o center column is a photographer thing. Of course your choice is also somewhat influenced by your height. I'm on the short side, have angled scopes and use a 1st gen Gitzo G1227. Normally the center column is only extended a couple inches. Someone over 6ft might need it extended full height and the view is probably less steady. I haven't had a serious urge to update the G1227 and haven't kept up on the newest manufacturers and models.

The Gitzo GHF2W is my head of choice for the ATX95 and should be fine for the ATX 85. While John (Tringa) absolutely cannot abide my use or endorsement of the Manfrotto 128RC I've found it to be the best head for my Meopta S2. The ATX 85 is about the same weight as the S2 and I would give it a try on the 128RC if I owned it. It's main advantage of the 128RC is that the foot of the ATX and the S2 fit directly into it head without a plate. I despise plates since the ones I've encountered don't provide a secure, twist-free interface with a scope foot. Various adapters, pins, threaded sockets, etc. are available to make a more secure fit. I prefer not to spend time and money trying to figure out which special combination works. The photography industry has been far ahead of the sport optics manufacturers on this issue. Many lenses come with an Arca-Swiss ready foot, or the ablilty to replace the foot with a 3rd party A-S one. Of course now that I've typed this I recall that Swarovski ATX/STX has been available with an A-S type foot, but I've not heard what heads it works on.

Full disclosure: My S2 WILL flop on the 128RC if the vertical knob is loose and the scope is positioned somewhat out of level. However the head is fairly well dampened, the flop motion is controlled and the kit is in no danger of tipping the kit over.

Back on the GHF2W, the included plate doesn't have accommodation for an anti-rotation pin. The Swarovski CTH is the equivalent head and the plate does include a pin, however it is usually somewhat more expensive. The plate can be purchased separately as the Swarovski PTH tripod head plate for about $27.

That's all I have at the moment. There are probably some threads in the Tripods and Heads section you should review. Here's one example:

Tripod Head Advice for Meopta Meostar S2

Looking to upgrade my current Promaster Pan head as it definitely is not enough for the Meostar S2 82mm Scope I’m running and need some advice. Currenty using a Slik PRO 723CF Tripod which seems up to the task but the head sometimes has difficulty remaining steady, especially when attempting to...

www.birdforum.net

 

[4 The Birds1]

I already own an older set of gitzo legs… the Gitzo GT3540LS.
Wonder if I should just use these with the scope and only buy a new head for the scope

I would think so

 

[4 The Birds1]

and on the subject of heads: I would not recommend the 128RC head, and particularly not for a scope that is back-heavy. This head does not allow for the use of a longer plate, which you need to balance a scope that isn't balanced in itself. (I had my ATX95 (which is balanced in itself) on a 128 for a while, and I eventually upgraded to a Berlebach 553)

 

[forent]

(...) btw… I should perhaps mention… I do a lot of photography and I already own an older set of gitzo legs… the Gitzo GT3540LS.
Wonder if I should just use these with the scope and only buy a new head for the scope, or if a different set of legs would make more sense for the scope. And at the risk of bringing eye rolls from some of you 😀, I do often bird with people of various heights and so the lack of a center column on my gitzo does give me a bit of concern…. Yes… I know…. Why put a fancy scope on a fancy tripod and then turn it into a monopod…. (...)

Congrats to your great Gitzo tripod! In my opinion this is the perfect base for any of the scopes you mention. Bill Atwoods recommendation Gitzo GHF2W would be great, too, and is in my opinion the head of choice. I just hate center colums and have abolished my last tripod with built-in column 15 years ago with no regrets. But your mileage may vary. Anyway, as far as I remember it is possible to upgrade your Gitzo Systematic with a column kit.

 

[Bill Atwood]

Upon further review...the newer (as of 2-3 years ago?) ATX/STX scopes have what Swarovski calls the AS foot. It fits directly into the Swarovski CTH head WITHOUT a plate. It should also fit directly into the Gitzo GHF2W head. I would get either head.

Damn, this development and the upcoming Kowa 99x are making my credit cards sweat.

 

[safaridreaming]

I hv the 95, 115 in both the ATX / BTX combinations. Typically i use the 115mm in BTX configuration and the 95 in ATX.

I mount any combination of those on a Sirui VH-10 head and find it works extremely well for me.

I also use a Sirui tripod but sounds like you already hv a tripod and are looking at suggestions just for the head. My combination of head / tripod dampens vibrations well although i do need to be cautious about where i setup. Often on boardwalks at the edge of lakes / marshes, I’ll pick up vibration from other ppl moving around on the same structure. On Grass and other solid surfaces, the VH-10 head is flawless. I do hv to use the tension adjuster to reduce tension when changing over from the BTX115 to ATX95 but its instinctive now. I dont use a handle and usually hv my hand resting on scope body to pan / tilt the scope.

incidentally i also upgrade to these scopes from a Swaro ATS 80 but also owned a TSN-883 in between. Unless you’re wedded to Swaro’s modular setup (i am as the BTX is my most frequently used scope) with potential to add BTX in the future, i’d strongly consider the Kowa as well.

 

[WarblerWhisperer]

Thank you Forent, Bill Atwood, and all…. The advice that you are sharing here is invaluable. The development of the new foot is fantastic. I think I’ll see about adding a center column to my gitzo and getting the gitzo head. I was almost ready to decide on the ATX 85 but now that I’ve learned about the kowa 99 I feel like I need to do a bit more research 😀. Maybe even wait for a few more real world reviews.