Here are the new Victorys: Victory HT (1 Viewer)

[Gijs van Ginkel]

Marijn (post 970),
I do not know when I will start my quality investigation of the HT's compared with some other brands, I will wait until the 8x42 HT becomes available.
Steve (post 972).
Although one should expect a brighter image of the HT compared with the Swarovskis, I did not observe it. And the weather was ideal for such kind of observations: dark, cloudy sky. The red preference of the HT was very clear to me, but I hope to measure the transmission spectra to confirm it. Red preference is not a problem though. You refer to blue sensitivity for optimal vision at low light intensities. I suppose that you are hinting to the rod sensitivity, but that delivers a very low visual resolution/acuity as compared to cone vision. Even under mesopic conditions (combined rod and cone vision) the optimum spectral sensitivity of the eye is not strongly shifted to the blue part of the spectrum if I remember well (I have never seen a sensitivity curve for mesopic vision in the published data I have investigated).
Gijs

 

[hinnark]

Carbon fibre is seen as a wonder material, and perhaps had the FL been made of carbon fibre, they would have dominated the market. But plastic does not have the same image, and the FL is somewhat utilitarian. A review in a UK magazine suggested they were made from molten down action men. (Action Man is a sort of doll for male children, with army uniforms, guns and so on.) I imagine Zeiss staff must have choked on their cornflakes on reading that.

Having tried a HT, it does look much better, and the ergonomics are nice, better than the Swarovision, which I guess is the main competitor.

I know Action Man. That is quite funny, even though a bit below the belt. But no doubt about it: Design is at least half the way to success.

Steve

 

[jan van daalen]

Yes, I believe that's true. At the time when Minox advertise their argon filling I asked a chemist about it because I couldn't imagine this. Nitrogen can in fact leave the barrels in a process of diffusion.

BTW, I didn't see anybody here blaming at customers. But I have the impression that someone here is blaming at a former business partner for reasons nobody is able to check outside this relationship. This kind of blaming in the public often achieve the opposite because people could be tempted to interpret it as an unfair form of covered advertising.

Steve

People can read and make up their own mind. If you want to interpret it this way, that's all up to you.
Jan

 

[brocknroller]

At this point I will remind folks that when I compared HT with FL side-by-side in quick succession all of the colours were more vivid through HT including red.

Lee

Yes, I remember, those bright red roof tiles, however, I thought you later concluded after another look that the whole curve was boosted up but that the overall color balance had not changed. From NAB's comments, it seems that way. Also, the color of the reflections from the HT's coatings look the same or very similar to the FL's.

Did you get a chance to do an HT/SV EL A/B? (Wow! that's almost enough letters for alphabet soup .

RON: I haven't ignored binomania's review, however, Ugo, who compared the HT with the SV EL had nothing to say about their color rendition, which was surprising.

The only comment about this was made by Pier, who said:

"In fact, in practical use these binoculars show of images, very sharp, bright and high-contrast, color rendition I also seemed slightly more neutral than the previous version Victory FL, possibly due to the presence of the new lens SCHOTT HT."

"More neutral" suggests a flatter light curve, but notice he did say "slightly". Given the HTs were made with hunters in mind, I think the light curve will probably look similar to the FLs, bulging in the center, but hopefully with not as steep a fall off on the red end, which in the FLs looks like a slope designed for downhill racers. Gijs' comments about the HT's "red preference" sounds hopeful.

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[Leif]

Yes, I believe that's true. At the time when Minox advertise their argon filling I asked a chemist about it because I couldn't imagine this. Nitrogen can in fact leave the barrels in a process of diffusion.

Given that air is 78% nitrogen, 20% O2, and 2% other gases, the internal atmosphere must gradually reach equilibrium with the outside atmosphere. The part you don't want is water vapour, H2O, so I guess what matters is the time for the H2O to reach a level whereby internal condensation or fungus can appear. I've never heard of a waterproof bin fogging, or suffering fungus, not to say it does not occur. Steiner advertise the fact that some of their bins can be repressurised with N2 via two rather ostentatious valves. I assume Argon being heavier and bigger is slower to diffuse out.

On a related issue, central heating pipes may be made of plastic, in which case it is barrier pipe, which consists of two layers of plastic (such as polythene) with an intermediate barrier layer, which stops the diffusion of oxygen into the water. So plastic per se does not stop diffusion of N2 and O2, although perhaps Nylon (polyamide) does, that being the plastic in the FL. It is possible that magnesium is more porous, rather than polymer being non porous.

 

[jan van daalen]

Leif,

You are 100% right.
When I learned about this trade, I asked Zeiss why they made the bins with an plastic housing in stead of aluminium or magnesium as the other alpha's did. Their answer was: because of the fact it was air tight. I confronted Leica/Swarovski with this answer when I asked them why they made bins with aluminium/magnesium housings while those housing weren't (in Zeiss opinion) air tight. Their answer was "plastic housings don't sell".

The lesson here is: the market rules!
You can make the best there is, but if the market does not want it, it won't sell.

Now, everybody can interpret this the way they want, but you can't fool the market.

Jan

 

[james holdsworth]

People can read and make up their own mind. If you want to interpret it this way, that's all up to you.
Jan

I think most of us see your clear bias, with motive, but most are too polite to bring it up. I'm sure we will get lots of HT bashing from you in the future too.

Personally, I will wait to try the HT out ''in the flesh'' even though I see Brock already knows what the view looks like by guessing what the transmission graph might look like. Rich stuff. Look at some of the photos posted on the other HT thread and tell me why both the reds and greens seem richer in the HT than the SV. Me, I don't know why, but I'm sure you will have the answer.

 

[james holdsworth]

At this point I will remind folks that when I compared HT with FL side-by-side in quick succession all of the colours were more vivid through HT including red.

Lee

''Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them'' - Obi-wan Kenobi, Star Wars, 1977.

''Use the transmission curves, Luke, trust your spectra-graph'' - Qui-gon Brock

 

[brocknroller]

Leif,

You are 100% right.
When I learned about this trade, I asked Zeiss why they made the bins with an plastic housing in stead of aluminium or magnesium as the other alpha's did. Their answer was: because of the fact it was air tight. I confronted Leica/Swarovski with this answer when I asked them why they made bins with aluminium/magnesium housings while those housing weren't (in Zeiss opinion) air tight. Their answer was "plastic housings don't sell".

The lesson here is: the market rules!
You can make the best there is, but if the market does not want it, it won't sell.

Now, everybody can interpret this the way they want, but you can't fool the market.

Jan

"You can fool some of the market all of the time, and all of the market some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the market all of the time."

Yes, I remember many comments about the FL's "plasticy feel". Not sure how many got so turned off by it that they wouldn't buy them, but it did create a "buzz".

Another concern was that the polycarbonate body wasn't not as strong or durable as the magnesium/aluminum counterparts. This probably stems from buyers falsely equating polycarbonate with plastic. Perhaps if Zeiss had done a better job of touting the virutes of polycarbonate and had given the bin a synthetic rubber coating so it felt like other bins, we might not have seen a reversion to metal in the HT.

"Polycarbonate is one of those strange 'premium materials' because it's not always apparent by sight and touch that it is higher quality. With glass and metal, we know automatically that we're dealing with premium materials. But, polycarbonate can look and feel just like regular plastic, even though it is far stronger and more durable.

"From the research we've done, polycarbonate can be as much as 300 times stronger than average plastic. Unfortunately, the hardness scales and various impact resistance scales are different for plastics/polycarbonate, than things like glass or metal, so it's difficult to get measured comparisons of polycarbonate."

Source:

http://www.phonearena.com/news/Confirmed-the-Samsung-Galaxy-S-III-is-polycarbonate-not-plain-plastic_id30304

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[mak]

In a earlier stage, Zeiss told me they prefered polymer housings because of the fact this superior material was 100% air tight. The Nitrogin could not leak away as it did (so they claimed) on all other brands made of (what they called) inferior aluminium/magnesium nitrogin leaking housings.

When sales results are not what they should be, blame it on the customers.

Jan

Just look at the comments on here (BF) regarding FRP. People on here said it felt cheap. FRP has a number of benefits over magnesium, but if the customers don't like it then why carry on producing?

 

[Chosun Juan]

NAB,

I haven't tried either, only the pre-SV EL, but I think you'll find your answer in these light transmission charts of the SV EL and FL, assuming the color balance in the HTs is similar to FLs. I asked Stephen Ingraham for a transmission graph for the HTs, but he said that Zeiss doesn't make them. These are from allbinos and clearly show the difference.

The FL's light transmission peaks in the green-yellow, colors that are eyes are most sensitive to, so it enhances the brightness.

The EL's have a flatter transmission "curve," with peaks on both ends of the spectrum and a bit of a sag in the middle where our eyes need the least help. I think that explains the "wash out" you mentioned and why the color definition seems better in the ELs.

ISCO

WRONG! (well HALF wrong anyway!)

It seems the 'ol memory is not what it used to be :h?no wonder Jan has to keep explaining himself!) :news: :brains:

No matter how this got out - we got it! (courtesy of Jabali) :t: circa ~Sept 2012.

The famous (though well forgotten it seems) Zeiss HT 'Half Tr% graph' ......

Analysis shows pretty much b*gger all increase in transmission in the red ......

And yet, Lee reports excellent colour saturation, Tim's photo's show it in black and white (amongst other colours!), and now Gijs reports "The Swarovskis produded whites as really white, while the Zeiss Ht was definitely more red", which is definitely an interesting observation - so something going on. Roll on the spectral analysis test - should be fascinating to see how it marries up with the HALF GRAPH.

Given that the SV appears to be around the ~94% tr mark @ ~425nm ....... it also begs the question ....... what the hey! 'type' of glass are they using, and what crystal-majik jiggerypoo have they pulled in the coatings to get to that level ?? (and with glorious colour neutrality it seems).


Chosun :gh:

 

[jan van daalen]

You are right and it's a good thing they changed.

But you have to see this in the light of the events. On every salesmeeting, or whatever, for years we heard the Mantra: "It's superior because of it's durability and air tightness. We make the best", on the remark that is would sell much better if the housing was made of magnesium.
After years the decision is made to go for the magnesium housing (thank God!), and the only response on this item is: "Polymid doesn't sell".
That's why I made the remark "blame it on the customers".

But personally I am glad they finally come with an model that can compete with the others. And by that I mean a model that will sell.

Jan

 

[Chosun Juan]

Hey! Speak for yourself!

I for one, wish Zeiss had progressed with the whole reinforced polyamid thing, and gone the whole hog on the HT to give us a CFRP. They already had the machinery. New die. Chuck in some carbon fiber strands - and hey presto! Lighter weight (very much appreciated by birders), stiff, and strong, insulated to touch, and cheap, and easy to boot! Along with that all important marketing cache' ..... :smoke:

Perhaps Zeiss should put me on the books :t:

As far as the whole FL polycarbonate /amide, or whatever the exact receipe is. Yes it's plastic, but it's a particular type of plastic (not like your disposable bar-b-q plate type!)

I also recall Zeiss saying that it's reinforced with Fiberglass (60% is the figure that's floating around in the memory banks - always dangerous!)

Now just as oils ain't oils ...... fiberglass ain't fiberglass :brains:

If you were to use "E" glass, well that's as strong as ......

Carbon Fiber strands can also be used, and has been done in the automotive industry for decades, and decades - Carbon Fiber Reinforced Plastics (CFRP) which is both a marketing and engineering no brainer! If the market can't get it's head around that, then perhaps the right to breed should be seriously looked at!



Chosun :gh:

 

[Troubador]

Jan

Stephan Ingraham mentioned that the HTs are hand assembled by a team of 22 ladies. Was this also the case with FLs?

Lee

 

[Troubador]

HT Colours

With regard to what I see through the HT I have to say that the whole array of colours are more vivid when compared with FL. Whether the red has been boosted more than other colours I really couldn't say, but it was a surprise to see those red roof tiles buzzing with colour.

What I can say is that I was flabbergasted when A/B testing FL and HT.

I have not compared HT with Swarovision for the simple reason that I don't visit bino shops very often and I am really not that interested in Swaros having had a bad experience with an EL focus action a few years back. Yes, I know this is a woefully lazy attitude but there you go.

Lee

 

[JabaliHunter]

Binomania's very nice review of the HT was covered up immediately without a mention. Thank you Pier and Ugo for your impressions, and for the effort.

http://www.binomania.it/binocoli/ZeissHT8x42/ZeissHT8x42.php

Just wanted to give it another chance to be noticed. (... not quite as positive as Mr. Ingraham's opinion.)

Ron

Thanks for that. I hadn't realised that this was an extended update of Pier's previous article. :t:

 

[jan van daalen]

Jan

Stephan Ingraham mentioned that the HTs are hand assembled by a team of 22 ladies. Was this also the case with FLs?

Lee

Lee,

I did not count them, but yes most of them were female.
This is the same with Leica and Swarovski. All three told me that females work much more concentrated (read: producing higher quality) for a longer period then male are capable.
Jan

 

[Troubador]

Lee,

I did not count them, but yes most of them were female.
This is the same with Leica and Swarovski. All three told me that females work much more concentrated (read: producing higher quality) for a longer period then male are capable.
Jan

Jan

I did not express myself clearly enough. I obviously need to practice my native language a bit more

My question should really have been about the hand-assembly method: was the same for FLs? I was not really asking if the employees were female or not.

Lee

 

[jan van daalen]

Jan

I did not express myself clearly enough. I obviously need to practice my native language a bit more

My question should really have been about the hand-assembly method: was the same for FLs? I was not really asking if the employees were female or not.

Lee

Ha ha, OK!!!

Yes, same method.
In my memory the maximum production capacity of the FL was 78 a day. That's why I find 22 a day not much.
I can't imagine the HT will take 4 times more work than an FL.
So IMHO it is less personell on the HT production line.

Jan

 

[Troubador]

Ha ha, OK!!!

Yes, same method.
In my memory the maximum production capacity of the FL was 78 a day. That's why I find 22 a day not much.
I can't imagine the HT will take 4 times more work than an FL.
So IMHO it is less personell on the HT production line.

Jan

Thanks Jan. Actually the information about HT production was that 22 ladies assemble them and the bins go from one lady to another and that it takes one day for one HT to be assembled. It is not the case that each lady produces one HT per day. So I don't think we can really work out from this how many HTs are produced in a day. Or am I totally wrong? It would not be the first time!

Lee