Hippolais? (1 Viewer)

[JANJ]

Hello all.

What´s your opinion about the warbler called Sykes on this site?
Check the tail tip and lenght of undertail coverts. :eek!:

http://www.alsirhan.com/Blog/

JanJ

 

[CAU]

It looks like a Blyth's Reed Warbler to me. Short wings, cold grey general colour. Jan already mentioned why it's an acro. Compare to this one:

http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=hande1087510667&lang=eng

 

[Motmot]

Agree it's an Acro looking bird and I guess CAU may be well right with Blyth's as the short wings suggest.

 

[Howard King]

Would need to see more of the bird to pass any comment

 

[JANJ]

It looks like a Blyth's Reed Warbler to me. Short wings, cold grey general colour. Jan already mentioned why it's an acro. Compare to this one:

http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=hande1087510667&lang=eng

That was my thought - nice anyway to see some more images!

JanJ

 

[hannu]

In my mind, the bird is not Blyth's Reed, because e.g. all pale lower mandible, too pale legs, it lacks olive edges of wing feathers, too pale flanks, etc... clearly Hippolais

 

[stuart winter]

The swollen appearance of the bill from below reminds me of a Hippo.
Olivaceous Warblers have such a feature but it is the recently split
Western sp. that has the extreme form of this feature.

 

[gerdwichers8]

I cant see the lower mandible all pale; the cutting edges reach the tip of the bill without any dark and they make a clear contrast with the diffuse and dark middle section of the lower mandible. I get a bit less contrast with the paler base of it, but that is still paler.

Some birds in this link show paler legcolour.
http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/ind...=&order=lisays_paiva+DESC&sel=2&find=find&r=1

 

[CAU]

In my mind, the bird is not Blyth's Reed, because e.g. all pale lower mandible,

I don't see any difference in the paleness of the lower mandible compared to
this one:
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/hande/Acrdum6.jpg

too pale legs,

As Gerd pointed out, the leg colour is a bit variable in BRWs. The leg colour of the bird isn't too good for Sykes's Warbler either, as they usually also have darker legs.

it lacks olive edges of wing feathers,

From this angle the colour of the edges of the wing feathers is a bit hard to assess, but to me they look olive tinged.

too pale flanks, etc

On this bird the flanks are perhaps even paler:
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/hande/Acrdum1.jpg

Most importantly, to me this image of the Kuwaiti bird shows some of the best distinguishing features between acros and hippos, i.e. the shape of the tail and the length of the UTCs. On Hippolais warblers the central tail feathers are shorter than the surrounding ones, often creating a notched appearance. However, on the Kuwaiti bird the central TFs are the longest ones, and the UTCs reach almost the tip of the tail. Compare the shape of the tail and the ratio (wing tip to UTC tip)UTC tip to tail tip) of the Kuwaiti bird to these birds:

Sykes's Warblers:
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=15813
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=7325
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=7326
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/linto/HipramKI6W6081.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/linto/HipramKI6W3788.jpg

Booted Warblers:
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/linto/Hipcal050703KAZKI6W1924.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/linto/Hipcal050702KAZKI6W1125.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/masa/Hcal1.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/kesma/DSCN0008copy.jpg

 

[hannu]

It's unusual to be so pale lower mandible in Blyth's Reed but very ordinary in Sykes's. Sykes's has often a dark smudge near the tip of lower mandible, but usually Blyth's Reed has a clear and indistinct dark spot behind the pale tip of lower mandible.This is even visible in CAU's BRW example.
Sykes has proportionately long-tailed and short-winged and it has also a short primary projection. This bird seems to have very fresh tail feathers (notice the growth stripes and the difference between the length of outermost tfs) and pale tail tips (at least in the right side).You can NOT see the central tail feathers of Kuwaiti bird (they have 12 tfs), if you numbered them from outward. The bird seems to have deep emargination on P3, which fits well to Sykes's. The legs are usually reddish brown in adult Blyth's Reed, paler in juveniles.

 

[Jane Turner]

The wing tips do seem to be well past the base of the tail.

Can't see the long 1st primary of a Sykes either

 

[hannu]

Although we don't see long P1, it does not mean that the bird has not it!
But I don't claim that this is surely Sykes's, but most obviously Hippolais. In Addition to, the wing should look probably darker if this would be an Acro. Also the bird has rather dark eye, which refers more Hippolais. The situation of utcs depending on their freshness (they have feather loss very often in most pics and we see rather seldom pics from fresh plumage birds) and thus it varies a lot.

 

[CAU]

It's unusual to be so pale lower mandible in Blyth's Reed but very ordinary in Sykes's. Sykes's has often a dark smudge near the tip of lower mandible, but usually Blyth's Reed has a clear and indistinct dark spot behind the pale tip of lower mandible.This is even visible in CAU's BRW example.

I have attached a comparison picture of these two. Obviously there's more detail visible in the Finnish picture, but I still don't see any clear difference in the darkness of the spot.

Sykes has proportionately long-tailed and short-winged and it has also a short primary projection. This bird seems to have very fresh tail feathers (notice the growth stripes and the difference between the length of outermost tfs) and pale tail tips (at least in the right side).You can NOT see the central tail feathers of Kuwaiti bird (they have 12 tfs), if you numbered them from outward. The bird seems to have deep emargination on P3, which fits well to Sykes's. The legs are usually reddish brown in adult Blyth's Reed, paler in juveniles.

I think that it's strange to assume that the tail is strongly graduated because some feathers are still growing. It's already May and the bird is on migration.

The situation of utcs depending on their freshness (they have feather loss very often in most pics and we see rather seldom pics from fresh plumage birds) and thus it varies a lot.

Ok, here are some fresh plumage Eastern Olivaceous Warblers for comparison. Note the clearly shorter UTCs than on the subject bird (and different tail shape):
http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=98784&sid=04ebe7bb21fe55163e66d7f227dd16d7
http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=98313&sid=04ebe7bb21fe55163e66d7f227dd16d7
http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=29295&sid=04ebe7bb21fe55163e66d7f227dd16d7
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/Jniemi/hippal047copy72.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/Jniemi/hippal064copy72.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/JukkaJ/HIPPAL_060628_BUL_JJN_7907.jpg

 

[hannu]

I have attached a comparison picture of these two. Obviously there's more detail visible in the Finnish picture, but I still don't see any clear difference in the darkness of the spot.

CAU, we can forget this minor detail, which is not the most important feature...ok?

I think that it's strange to assume that the tail is strongly graduated because some feathers are still growing. It's already May and the bird is on migration.

Yep, I know that they have moulted before the migration, but
compare the length of right and left outermost tfs and you have to admit that there is clear difference between them. There are not almost any graduation on the left side. That kind of graduation in the outermost part of tail is even normal in Hippolais, which have clearly shorter innermost tfs (which isn't visible in the pic apparently).
The reason is unknown, but perhaps it has lost tail feathers in some reason or it has exceptional moulting 'interruption' or so?
This freshness of plumage and moulting time does not fit very well to Blyth's Reed, because Blyth's Reed moulting time is early winter to mid winter. I have ringed 88 Blyth's Reeds in last two years 06-07, so I think that I may know this detail very well. This kind of plumage freshness fits well e.g. Marsh Warbler. I admit that there is some exceptional individuals always, but I can't based on my opinion on these marginal cases.

Ok, here are some fresh plumage Eastern Olivaceous Warblers for comparison. Note the clearly shorter UTCs than on the subject bird (and different tail shape):
http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=98784&sid=04ebe7bb21fe55163e66d7f227dd16d7
http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=98313&sid=04ebe7bb21fe55163e66d7f227dd16d7
http://www.birdpix.nl/album_page.php?pic_id=29295&sid=04ebe7bb21fe55163e66d7f227dd16d7
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/Jniemi/hippal047copy72.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/Jniemi/hippal064copy72.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/JukkaJ/HIPPAL_060628_BUL_JJN_7907.jpg

I don't think that the situation of utc tip is very relevant feature to identify these birds in most cases. I have seen this in Blyth's Reed and I have measured the situation of tip of under tcs towards the tip of upper tail coverts and tip of tail. And I have to admit that they really varies a lot. I know that this feature is not very thoroughly studied. Of course we can discuss this endlessly.

 

[Jane Turner]

All I can say, is that its a good job this bird isn't in Manchester!

 

[Motmot]

In my mind, the bird is not Blyth's Reed, because e.g. all pale lower mandible, too pale legs, it lacks olive edges of wing feathers, too pale flanks, etc... clearly Hippolais

I can accept this bird is not a Blyth's (I def know you're good at them), maybe it's even a Sykes' but don't tell me this is clearly Hippolais. That broad and rounded looking tail with long UTCs doesn't look Hippo at all on this image. Hopefully more pics were taken and we'll reach a consensus but, if this is a Hippo, that's deffo not the best image to show how to tell both genus (generis?) apart.

 

[Jane Turner]

Its no good, I can't resist....

The top one is clearly a Hippo, whilst the bottom one is clearly an Acro... is that correct?

 

[Motmot]

Its no good, I can't resist....

The top one is clearly a Hippo, whilst the bottom one is clearly an Acro... is that correct?

That's a post for the non new arrivals to BF! o

 

[JANJ]

Well, this warbler stirred things up I have to say. Lets hope alsirhan or any of the other observers has some addtional images!

As Eduardo, I can accept this not being a dumetorum, outer tail feathers pale edged, but I have serious problems seeing the tail as a Hippolais tail, with an almost Locustella like long undertal coverts. Maybe misplcement of t-feathers is the reason for the difference in t-feather lenght mentioned bu hannu.

So alsirhan have a look here and come up with more images.

http://www.elisanet.fi/antero.lindholm/public_html/hippo/hippolais.htm

http://www.elisanet.fi/antero.lindholm/public_html/acro/acrocephalus.htm

dumetorum, note lower mandible pattern and undertail pattern, coverts lenght and the pattern of the tips and edges.

http://www.praktejder.se/images/2007/06/BusksangareMN-070613.htm

 

[hannu]

I can accept this bird is not a Blyth's (I def know you're good at them), maybe it's even a Sykes' but don't tell me this is clearly Hippolais. That broad and rounded looking tail with long UTCs doesn't look Hippo at all on this image. Hopefully more pics were taken and we'll reach a consensus but, if this is a Hippo, that's deffo not the best image to show how to tell both genus (generis?) apart.

I apologize to You for my comment, if it upset You so much, but I have such feel yesterday and it's going on. So fresh plumage and so greyish upperparts indicate Hippolais to me..... Including straight rictal bristles Good birding, Motmot :t: