I often ask myself how much binocular one needs and at what price. The so-called alphas are very expensive and are presented as lifetime possessions, but then, what does one do when later models or editions come out? And how far can improvement be substantial enough to merit an additional purchase? It has been pointed out that additional increments in performance become increasingly expensive. Does this mean that lesser producers will eventually get close enough to the most prestigious brands so that any difference in quality becomes negligibile and does not justify the price difference save for the ego involvement in being a conspicuous consumer? There are so many opinions out there, colored by subjectivity rather than a respect for the truth, that coming to any reasonable conclusion is truly daunting. Will it all come down to advances in coating technology? And if not, to what?
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How far and how much improvement? (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter carpincho
- Start date
You are discussing something which cannot be quantified.
“Justify the price difference” How do you measure this, and justify it to whom?
How is your eyesight, will you be able to see a difference in optical performance?
Does it feel better in your hands, look more graceful, come in a more attractive color?
Only you can answer these questions, and only for yourself.
“Justify the price difference” How do you measure this, and justify it to whom?
How is your eyesight, will you be able to see a difference in optical performance?
Does it feel better in your hands, look more graceful, come in a more attractive color?
Only you can answer these questions, and only for yourself.
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Steve C
Well-known member
The only real answer is just buy the best you can afford. Once you have done that the best thing to do is to just go use the binocular and don't worry much about price difference. Don't worry much about "what If" I'd buy something else. People tend, in my experience, to think that there is a lot more difference, or improvement by spending more on a new binocular than may exist. There are lots of binoculars at and below prices much less than half to a third the cost of the top end that will give superlative service.
Binocular selection is likely at least 75% subjective. I tend to find myself in agreement with the above post.
Binocular selection is likely at least 75% subjective. I tend to find myself in agreement with the above post.
Georgebirds
Well-known member
I have really cheap binoculars. Not only cos I'm really cheap, but multiple other reasons!
My eyesight's not good enough to appreciate a better image quality. When looking at HD tv, for example, I've come to the conclusion 'I don't have HD eyes' because I cannot see a difference.
I'm also not careful enough to own something expensive and easily damaged - I drop them, I knock them against things, I forget they're there and they hit window edges and shelves in hides, or bounce off gates and stiles, or get hooked on tree branches. I'm a general magnet to all sorts of dirt and dust and mess, which in my mucky job and horse hobby doesn't matter, but it follows me everywhere I go - think that one kid in the Peanuts cartoons who's just a walking ball of scribble and leaves speckles of dirt behind him, hah.
These are, by the way, the same reasons I can't wear glasses for my astigmatic eyes - the whole concept of balancing something constantly on my face which mustn't be knocked off or bashed into things or got dirty/smeary within seconds (while simultaneously trying to ignore the feeling of it being there, touching my nose, stopping me rubbing my eyes, and oh the disorientating sharp spot of vision surrounded by worse blur and frames/edges I can SEE...it's all too much), just not possible.
A mid or high-end pair of binos would not stay clean and unscratched and collimated, any longer than a budget-end pair would. I'd bash and dirty those, too. And at least with my second hand £30-ish purchase, it's not scaring me to have them on my person, and it's not an unattainable expense (or horrific idea!) if I do have to replace them after a few years cos I've damaged them beyond ah-well-use-it-anyway level.
So there's a rather different answer to your question, of how much binocular one needs and at what price. while most on the forum want the best binos possible and would happily upgrade if they could afford more and more, personally I only need cheap ones, which I can use without fear or regret!
My eyesight's not good enough to appreciate a better image quality. When looking at HD tv, for example, I've come to the conclusion 'I don't have HD eyes' because I cannot see a difference.
I'm also not careful enough to own something expensive and easily damaged - I drop them, I knock them against things, I forget they're there and they hit window edges and shelves in hides, or bounce off gates and stiles, or get hooked on tree branches. I'm a general magnet to all sorts of dirt and dust and mess, which in my mucky job and horse hobby doesn't matter, but it follows me everywhere I go - think that one kid in the Peanuts cartoons who's just a walking ball of scribble and leaves speckles of dirt behind him, hah.
These are, by the way, the same reasons I can't wear glasses for my astigmatic eyes - the whole concept of balancing something constantly on my face which mustn't be knocked off or bashed into things or got dirty/smeary within seconds (while simultaneously trying to ignore the feeling of it being there, touching my nose, stopping me rubbing my eyes, and oh the disorientating sharp spot of vision surrounded by worse blur and frames/edges I can SEE...it's all too much), just not possible.
A mid or high-end pair of binos would not stay clean and unscratched and collimated, any longer than a budget-end pair would. I'd bash and dirty those, too. And at least with my second hand £30-ish purchase, it's not scaring me to have them on my person, and it's not an unattainable expense (or horrific idea!) if I do have to replace them after a few years cos I've damaged them beyond ah-well-use-it-anyway level.
So there's a rather different answer to your question, of how much binocular one needs and at what price. while most on the forum want the best binos possible and would happily upgrade if they could afford more and more, personally I only need cheap ones, which I can use without fear or regret!
chill6x6
Well-known member
Common question and concern...
I use binoculars from every price point and from most eras from let's say the 1990s(some before). So easily 30 years of binoculars(more, really)from $100 to $3000ish. I find I use binoculars from around $800 to around $2000 the most. The extra monies spent beyond that are for the most part unnecessary to have a binocular that gives you really great performance/view/optics/FOV/adjustments/etc. Now if you must have THE BEST...it's going to cost you but it is completely unnecessary and not needed. STILL...Monarch HG, Zeiss Conquest of choice, Zeiss SFL, various Mavens, Vortex Razor UHD, etc are going to perform GREAT. The next step up is very costly and completely unnecessary. This coming from someone that has gone the unnecessary route many times!
I use binoculars from every price point and from most eras from let's say the 1990s(some before). So easily 30 years of binoculars(more, really)from $100 to $3000ish. I find I use binoculars from around $800 to around $2000 the most. The extra monies spent beyond that are for the most part unnecessary to have a binocular that gives you really great performance/view/optics/FOV/adjustments/etc. Now if you must have THE BEST...it's going to cost you but it is completely unnecessary and not needed. STILL...Monarch HG, Zeiss Conquest of choice, Zeiss SFL, various Mavens, Vortex Razor UHD, etc are going to perform GREAT. The next step up is very costly and completely unnecessary. This coming from someone that has gone the unnecessary route many times!
crinklystarfish
Well-known member
Overthinking.
We're all going to be dead soon.
If you want it and can afford it: buy it.
We're all going to be dead soon.
If you want it and can afford it: buy it.
tenex
reality-based
There are indeed, with such a wide range of models today good enough for most purposes. But no "truth" to respect, no overall "reasonable conclusion" to come to, just individual taste as to what one wants, not "needs". I think this is a good thing, not some sort of problem.
Binocollector
Well-known member
I've decided for myself that I feel most comfortable in the 500-1,000€ price range. I got some great deals for my Fujinon HC 8x42 and Meopta Meopro Air 8x42 (the Meopta quickly became my grab and go bino for the great eye relief and nice handling) and both are just about as good as I'd ever need. I'm not sure I'd feel all that comfy with a 3,000€ instrument. I'd be too afraid to drop it or something. Also - it'd be as expensive as our car. So even though theoretically I could sell half the collection and buy a Swaro NL or Zeiss SF, I probably never will. I'm also not sure that the percentage of improvement of the optical quality for 6x the price would be worth it. Especially since I'm in no shape or form a "serious" birder who needs the absolutely most perfect optics to identify those rare species. The ones I look at, I can basically identify and admire with a 60€ Opticron Adventurer porro just as well as with the more expensive models I own.
Everyone comes to his own equilibrium.
On the way to finding it, we toss a lot of undefinable, and unmeasurable, hand-waving terms around. “Better”, “value”, “need”, and so on forever.
Decide how much you are willing to spend, then see what is available for that much money. Think about used, from a reputable dealer/seller. If your range is $/£/€500-1000, spend the 1000.
Don’t overthink it, and chose a binocular by actually holding it up to your face and looking through it.
On the way to finding it, we toss a lot of undefinable, and unmeasurable, hand-waving terms around. “Better”, “value”, “need”, and so on forever.
Decide how much you are willing to spend, then see what is available for that much money. Think about used, from a reputable dealer/seller. If your range is $/£/€500-1000, spend the 1000.
Don’t overthink it, and chose a binocular by actually holding it up to your face and looking through it.
Hermann
Well-known member
I don't think most modern "alphas" are "lifetime possessions" anymore, especially not when you use them a lot. They aren't built like tanks anymore. Not all of them, but most. Those times are long over. But as long as they last and are reliable, you keep them. And use them. But if you go on a lifetime trip somewhere, take a spare pair.
There's only one substantial improvement left: Stabilization. And that's a game changer - provided the binocular is optically good, reasonably light and has decent ergonomics. Two out three isn't good enough. And: Today, from the binoculars I know, only one can keep up with the "alphas" optically. But it's too heavy and the ergonomics need some getting used to.
Yes. Look at the Sky Rover range from China, they're pretty close to the "alphas". So is the APM 6.5x32, a really cheap binocular. If you don't want to buy from China, get e.g. some Conquest HD/HDX. Or an MHG.
Coating technology - not much room for improvement left. The only real advance is probably stabilization.
Hermann
Hermann
Well-known member
Montereyman
Well-known member
On excursions with other birders I have borrowed their binoculars and found that the brand mattered far less than the amount of magnfication. There has been noticeable color fringing and I find that othersome whereas others may not notice it or find it easy to ignore.
The pricier binoculars are manufactured in countries that pay their workers more than the bare minimum and where there is universal healthcare for everyone and not just the military or the policians as in the USA.
Pinewood
New York correspondent
Hello Chill,
Yes, I doubt that my knowledge of birds requires what I currently own.
I like to tell people I can afford neither a Rolls nor a Patek Philippe, so a top of the line binocular is just a bit of affordable gratification. I only have to give up owning a car, dining out and going down the pub. Given my life expectancy, my current 8x32 might cost me 75¢ per day.
Happy bird watching,
Arthur
I would disagree here with regard to the collimation.
Higher end binos are much better built. Zeiss Conquest are famously tough.
Nearly every cheap bino I have looked through are out of collimation, whereas a top tier one usually isn't, and even if it is, the better manufacturers will sort it under warranty.
Cheap binos lack the transmission and clarity of higher end optics.
Now I wouldn't justify the prices of Pures or SF's..... but I would also not be happy going lower than Conquests, or similar.
You do get what you pay for, and also remain with 'some' value second hand.
As chill6x6 notes in his post #6 upthread, this is one of the most common yet at the same time most difficult questions - because everyone's perception of both quality and value is different, and both may change with time as you get more experienced and/or your disposable income increases (or not...). So everything is relative; but Chill's observation that he finds himself using "around $800 to around $2000 the most" offers some valuable perspective in terms of absolutes, as very few of us have comparable field experience with such a variety of optics.
My own feeling is that buying alpha-class optics secondhand offers the most bang for the buck, though there is more risk involved with a secondhand purchase. The "sub-alpha" category binoculars are outstanding in their own right, coming close to if not actually surpassing some previous generation top-line products, and I suppose buying those secondhand offers even more value yet. But - without a doubt - even sub-alphas aren't truly necessary to enjoy birds and birding. A lot of enjoyment and satisfaction can be had with very modest binoculars, especially if you focus (excuse the pun) on what you're looking at, rather than what you're using to look at it.
My own feeling is that buying alpha-class optics secondhand offers the most bang for the buck, though there is more risk involved with a secondhand purchase. The "sub-alpha" category binoculars are outstanding in their own right, coming close to if not actually surpassing some previous generation top-line products, and I suppose buying those secondhand offers even more value yet. But - without a doubt - even sub-alphas aren't truly necessary to enjoy birds and birding. A lot of enjoyment and satisfaction can be had with very modest binoculars, especially if you focus (excuse the pun) on what you're looking at, rather than what you're using to look at it.
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A2GG
Beth
I’ve owned about 10 different binoculars or more in the 100-500 dollar range, 4 different binos in the $1000 range and 2 around the $2000 range (each). I’ve never felt a strong urge to spend 3k on a super alpha. For me the 1k binos are more than good enough and are the sweet spot. I own one binocular now - Trinovid HD - which I enjoy very much. But if I had to go down to a 400-500 dollar bino I’m sure I’d get by just fine.
I have a regular HD TV and I’ve seen the better TVs like 4k or 8k in stores and restaurants and, even though I can see a difference, I’m happy with my HD TV.
It’s the same with binos. I like what I already have and these days I’m no longer looking for something ‘better’ or to upgrade.
I have a regular HD TV and I’ve seen the better TVs like 4k or 8k in stores and restaurants and, even though I can see a difference, I’m happy with my HD TV.
It’s the same with binos. I like what I already have and these days I’m no longer looking for something ‘better’ or to upgrade.
WJC
Well-known member
250222
The Nikon 8x32 SE was one of the first binos to be awarded the childish “ALPHA” designation. I have one, but don’t use it. Although a blessing to use, it is now out of production. This means those lower on the IQ scale may consider it obsolete. After all newer and more expensive most be far superior ... right? Mine is in the closet to be given to my daughter at a later date. When I bought it, I could have had ANY of the best (and most expensive) binoculars in the world. Most were in just one of my 5 display cases at Captain’s.
My birdwatching binocular is now a Bausch & Lomb (Bushnell) 8x40 Legacy bought from eBay. Its image is bright, contrasty, has a wide field, and before I sold my collimator, it proved to be a fraction of its need for collimation. The only thing it lacked was—drum roll, please—BRAGGING RIGHTS, which I have never had the need for (preposition at the end and all)!
Being an egotist, I think having been in professional optics for over 50 years, repair, engineering, Chief Opticalman for the US Navy, optical department head in the civilian world, optical author, and having repaired and/or collimated something over 12,000 binoculars I have a right to that opinion.
I rush on to say that those lacking experience or who think having bragging rights elevates them above their peers, are being well-served and the following does NOT apply to you.
“I have found the key to happiness—stay away from idiots.”— Morgan Freeman (attributed)
Finally, for my many friends on Birdforum—both of them—The reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated ... Well, partially, somewhat, or occasionally exaggerated, anyway. At least temporally.
Cheers, Bill
The Nikon 8x32 SE was one of the first binos to be awarded the childish “ALPHA” designation. I have one, but don’t use it. Although a blessing to use, it is now out of production. This means those lower on the IQ scale may consider it obsolete. After all newer and more expensive most be far superior ... right? Mine is in the closet to be given to my daughter at a later date. When I bought it, I could have had ANY of the best (and most expensive) binoculars in the world. Most were in just one of my 5 display cases at Captain’s.
My birdwatching binocular is now a Bausch & Lomb (Bushnell) 8x40 Legacy bought from eBay. Its image is bright, contrasty, has a wide field, and before I sold my collimator, it proved to be a fraction of its need for collimation. The only thing it lacked was—drum roll, please—BRAGGING RIGHTS, which I have never had the need for (preposition at the end and all)!
Being an egotist, I think having been in professional optics for over 50 years, repair, engineering, Chief Opticalman for the US Navy, optical department head in the civilian world, optical author, and having repaired and/or collimated something over 12,000 binoculars I have a right to that opinion.
I rush on to say that those lacking experience or who think having bragging rights elevates them above their peers, are being well-served and the following does NOT apply to you.
“I have found the key to happiness—stay away from idiots.”— Morgan Freeman (attributed)
Finally, for my many friends on Birdforum—both of them—The reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated ... Well, partially, somewhat, or occasionally exaggerated, anyway. At least temporally.
Cheers, Bill
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