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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

How good are the new Diascopes? (1 Viewer)

bjhbrian

bjhbrian
Hi Guys, Is there anyone out there who is using either of the new diascopes? If so could you please say if they are significantly better in IQ than the older versions, and in what way. I can find just one or two digiscoped examples on places like Flickr, and there don't seem to any proper reviews out yet - not that I can find anyway. I'm looking to buy a scope for the first time and will be using it for birding, general wildlife and nature watching, and digiscoping. I've narrowed my choice down to Zeiss or Swarovski (and will be posting a similar request on the Swarovski Forum). Any comments would be greatly appreciated!

Brian (bjhbrian)
 
I just ordered a new zeiss 85 with the 20-75 zoom and it should get here by saturday. I'll post some digiscoped pics sometime next week as well as some impressions. Hopefully it star tests well.

I got the body + eyepiece for $2000...too tempting to pass up. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with the old Zeiss models. Still, as I understand, most are keen to hear about the new zoom's edge sharpness at low magnification and the color bias. I'll be sure to do what I can to provide information regarding these two aspects.
 
There is an APO televid for sale on the forum for £900 including tripod and SOC. If this is in mint condition with no issues to the objective lens I would get this. I had one of these scope and it provided amazing image quality though it was rather heavy. I now use Swarovski ATS 65HD, which is lighter and image resolution is second to none. These can be picked up suprisingly cheaply, mine was under £1000 including 30WA lens.
Regards
Daniel
 
Thanks

I just ordered a new zeiss 85 with the 20-75 zoom and it should get here by saturday. I'll post some digiscoped pics sometime next week as well as some impressions. Hopefully it star tests well.

I got the body + eyepiece for $2000...too tempting to pass up. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with the old Zeiss models. Still, as I understand, most are keen to hear about the new zoom's edge sharpness at low magnification and the color bias. I'll be sure to do what I can to provide information regarding these two aspects.

Hi, and thanks for the reply. It'll be very interested to hear your views - particular regarding the color bias. This seems to worry some, especially in dull conditions. It's certainly noticable in the older digiscoped examples.

Cheers,

Brian
 
Tanks

There is an APO televid for sale on the forum for £900 including tripod and SOC. If this is in mint condition with no issues to the objective lens I would get this. I had one of these scope and it provided amazing image quality though it was rather heavy. I now use Swarovski ATS 65HD, which is lighter and image resolution is second to none. These can be picked up suprisingly cheaply, mine was under £1000 including 30WA lens.
Regards
Daniel

Hi. very many thanks for the 'heads up' - but I missed it, it's already gone! The Swarovski 65 HD is an option for serious consideration, but I'm not sure about digiscoping? I'd rather like the new 25x50 ep because of the wider AOV. If the new Leicas weren't so expensive (andperhaps I was more experienced!) I think I'd be tempted by them too. The previous versions do appear to have suffered from 'peeling' objective lenses, but it's said the new ones don't. I used to have the Leica M series cameras, and always regret having been seduced by SLRs and migrating to Nikon! Leica's seem to me to have an unequalled natural IQ, and a three dimensional look others don't.

Cheers, Brian
 
I think there are still a few clean examples out there, you could try http://www.lcegroup.co.uk/Secondhan...Model=&SHType=Telescopes&Location=&Results=48 as there is a deal on a new straight diascope 65 and a rather clean 65HD.
I personally use the 30wa lens which is fantastic for general birding and I have had some success digiscoping with it. I have used a coolpix4500 with adapter with some decent shots, and also handheld a Samsung L201.
The 25-50 zoom is very highly regarded, though I am unsure whether zooms yeild the same/better/worse results than a fixed eyepiece.
Good luck with finding a scope and if I see anything interesting I shall give you a heads up on this thread.
Regards
Daniel
 
Thanks to all

Without wishing to give away all my secrets, you can also try http://www.focusoptics.eu/focus/second-hand/used-2/?product_page=6 theres a lot of bargains on here.

Hi, Well, I've pulled the triger on a Leica apo 77 + 32ww + case. Local shop Tunbridge Wells had a sale: it's an older model (pre-locking eyepiece) but literally like new, not a mark on it, and with a 12 mth garantee. If I get gripped by things and want to upgrade I should get a reasonable price in px or sale.

First impressions are nice: saw the larger moons of Jupter last night but the planet itself too bright at present for detail. Very sharp craters on the moon's edge. Poor distance viewing today because of mists etc, but nice and sharp closer. A good tripod's a necessity though; my gitzo 3531s is fine and the 1127 geared just about copes, but a giottos one I also have doesn't cut the mustard.

Thanks to everyone for their interest and help: when I've learnt to use the scope properly, I'll be back on the appropriate forum for help with digiscoping!

Cheers, Brian
 
Congrats on your scope, Brian.

I received my Zeiss today with the 20-75x vario. Unfortunately it was overcast today and will rain tomorrow, so no resolution or star testing for me until Monday at the earliest. Still, I was able to take a gander with what light I did have, and can report the following.

I can confirm that the 20-75x is soft at the corners at 20x and sharpens up as you increase magnification. At 75x, the image was sharp throughout. I unfortunately didn't nail down exactly at what point the edge softness improves/goes away.

Color rendition looked fairly neutral to me; I definitely did not notice the yellow tint that is mentioned when talking about the previous zeiss models. Perhaps this is something that one would notice with two different scopes lined up next to each other, but to me the colors seemed true.

Hopefully on Monday I'll have some resolution/star test results and a few digiscoped samples with the canon s95.
 
Well, the atmosphere has been a bit turbulent, but last night it was good enough to get an idea of the defects associated with this copy. As with seemingly most zeiss models, the most obvious defect I observed was undercorrection for spherical aberration. This copy also shows some astigmatism, but based on the USAF resolution test I conducted this morning, the undercorrection likely is hurting performance the most.

The noted a scope resolution of 1.64 arcseconds this morning. While it'd be great if it were lower, I won't quibble. The only reason I performed these tests was to make sure I didn't get a lemon, which I'm glad I didn't.

Now that I can breathe a sigh of relief, the real fun can begin...digiscoping!
 
asteracea,

I don't want to rain on your parade, so if you're happy with these results - OK, but resolution of 139/D on the USAF chart combined with an astigmatic star-test would be bad enough for me to return an expensive scope like this. I measured resolution of 132/D for the best of three $1000 Chinese Zen-Ray scopes I tested last year. Resolution for the worst of three Kowa 883 scopes I tested was about 130/D and it was returned for a better performing specimen (119/D) because of astigmatism.

I doubt that you'll notice anything wrong with digiscoped images made through this scope, but high magnification visual images will almost certainly look softer than they should. Unfortunately, the risk of exchanging one unit for another is that you might wind up with a worse one, but you certainly have a leg up on most scope buyers since you know how to star test and measure resolution. For an expensive purchase like this I would be trying for resolution of at least 130/D on the USAF chart (120-125/D would be more like it) and no (or extremely little) astigmatism.

Henry
 
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No problem, Henry. I appreciate the honesty and am aware the results aren't great. Credit goes to you for informing us birders on proper scope testing for purchases.

I honestly will be happy with this scope, even with the findings. The astigmatism was very mild and I didn't really give up much distance to the chart in order to resolve both the horizontal/vertical line pairs of the last element. I have no doubt actually that I could get a better result based on the conditions this morning, but I really was just checking if I had a lemon or not.

I told myself before I bought this that I was not going to obsess over the optical results, as long as I wasn't stuck with a lemon. As you say, there's a chance that I could get this one exchanged for something worse. I'd rather save myself all that time in anticipation and testing new samples and use it for birding and digiscoping.

Of course, I still have a month or so to completely change my mind. :-O
 
It occurred to me yesterday that perhaps I was being unfair to Zeiss here, as this thread has quite a few views. People may get the wrong impression regarding quality control and thus reluctant to choose a new Zeiss if the opportunity is there.

I regret putting the optical test results here since they were in fact, a bit crude. My view at the time was that if the results were horrible (150/D), I would retest more precisely and evaluate my options. So let me tell you, if you want a precise idea of the optical qualities of your scope, what not to do, as I did:

-- don't perform star tests when low pressure systems are still passing through. I did on a night of fast moving partly to mostly cloudy skies. Star test when you can, on a clear night with little to no turbulence

-- don't use a cheap, zoom bino as your multiplier to achieve magnifications of 100x or more. I did. You risk incorporating any optical flaws of the bino into your results.

-- don't perform resolution tests where any haze is present. I did. Make sure it is a clear, sunny day, with little wind and before any heat haze presents itself. Keep your scope in the shade and the target well lit.

-- make sure your scope is thermally equilibrated before testing. Talking at least 2 hours here. Fortunately, I did this previously when testing.

So why did I perform such crude tests? Impatience, really. But like I said, I knew what I was doing wasn't precise, so I knew the scope was better than I was reporting. I believe I failed to communicate this clearly in my post, though.

I visited a scope shop yesterday that is familar with me. They allowed me to borrow an eyepiece doubler for a few days so I could be more precise with these tests.

I performed a star test on my scope with the doubler on a near perfect, crystal clear night last night. Before, I could detect no astigmatism at 75x on just the scope. With the doubler, there was still no hint of astigmatism present at 150x. It may be that the astigmatism I detected previously was due to the cheap binos I was using as a magnifier. Undercorrection to spherical aberration was still present, but I could at least see diffraction rings on both sides of focus.

This morning was a perfectly clear, wonderful morning for resolution testing. Again with the doubler, I could detect no astigmatism when looking at the usaf chart. This time, I got a resolution of 1.46 arcseconds, which amounts to 124/D. A far superior result than previous. Needless to say, I won't be exchanging this scope, but I will be repeating these tests to verify.

I'll post some digiscoping details later in the week, but at 20x, this is a good combo with the s95. I'll likely be getting some astro eyepieces for this scope for more eye relief, once I can sift out which ones will work best with the adapters available. The baader hyperions I know will work well (with baader adapter) but I'm also looking at perhaps the vixen lvw series as well. Both offer 20mm of eye relief with the baaders offering a slightly larger field of view.
 
asteracea,

An excellent outcome! Nothing better than an apparently mediocre scope transforming into a cherry. It helps to have a reference scope of known quality handy for for evaluating the test conditions.

Henry
 
That is an excellent point, Henry. Wish I had one before I got this one.

Fortunately, the results I reported from my last post were very reproducible, so it seems that this is a very good scope indeed.

I did get a chance to do some digiscoping this week. The vario 20-75x/canon s95 combo is a very good one. At 20x, the camera needs to be zoomed half-way to remove vignetting. This is the case throughout the zoom range, actually. The only issue is that the eye relief drops starting at 25x. With my setup, when I increase magnification, I need to move the camera lens closer to the eyepiece. Starting at 55-60x, the eye relief increases again, meaning that the camera lens needs to be moved further away for optimal view. Camera placement is very critical at higher mags, not that one usually digiscopes at these magnifications.

Fortunately, adjustments are easy with the Zeiss quick change adapter (qca). I was reluctant when I saw the price, but glad I went ahead, as it is rock solid and easy to use.

I've attached some samples below:

Black phoebe: digiscoped@20x, distance ~10m; 1200mm effective, system aperture f/3.5 (camera limited)
Lesser goldfinch: digiscoped @40x, distance ~12m, effective focal length 2390mm; system aperture f/6.0 (scope limited).
Dark-eyed Junco: digiscoped @40x, distance ~13m, effective focal length 2390mm, system aperture f/6.0 (scope limited).
 

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One last post with some digiscoped pics. I'll be posting more to my gallery for those that are interested in more.

I shoot all of my photos in RAW and haven't messed with the white balance at all in post processing. The colors presented in these photos are basically what you see through the scope.

I set the s95 to manual focus and tweak the focus using the scope while the camera shutter is half-pressed (mechanical shutter release). While the screen on the s95 could be better for this, I seem to get more keepers this way than relying on auto focus. The focus knob on the scope is top notch in this regard.

Info regarding magnification, etc. are in the exif.
 

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I had a chance to look through the new 85mm Diascope with the 20-75x eyepiece. Long story short, I didn't like it very much. The eye relief is much shorter than its competitors, and would be a problem for a lot glass wearers. The image has a significant amount of CA very close to the center of the field. See the attached photos for comparison of the Diascope and a competitor scope I was trying at the same time. They are crops of a quadrant of the field, with the star ray pattern at the center of the field. The scope had a bit of trouble taking 60x power, and the image was soft at 75x that it did not reveal more detail than at 60x. The dual speed focus wasn't to my liking either. The coarse focus region is too stiff to turn. The non-parfocalness of the eyepiece means you'll have to bump into that stiff region pretty often when all you are doing is zooming in and out on an object. I much prefer the traditional helical or two-knob configuration. The scope is quite heavy. The 20-75x eyepiece alone weighs a pound. The plus side is that it's apparently very well built. Although I did notice the rubber armoring was coming loose on top of the prism housing.

I suspect the scope I got was a below-average sample. However, the short eye relief and the amount of CA are probably design decisions independent of the execution. Due to its optical quality and ergonomics, the Diascope was the first that got eliminated from our shopping list.

Of course this is just my impression of the scope. I wear glasses, is sensitive to CA, and is spoiled by the butter smooth focus of Nikon bins. The Diascope, if you get a good sample, may well satisfy all your needs. As others have said many times, at this price point, a lot comes down to personal preference. Try before you buy, or, at least, order from a vendor with a generous return policy.
 

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Looks like its the big kowa for me then spacepilot !! .

Also try the Swarovski HDs if you can. The 88mm Kowa is usually ranked at the top for center resolution in reviews. But from my limited experience with the two scopes, the 80mm Swarovski HD scope is very close in resolution. The Swaro may even have less off-axis CA than the Kowa if I remember correctly. The "competitor" photo I posted was taken from a Swaro. You can see that there's virtually no CA almost to the edge of the field. The new Swarovski 25-50x eyepiece is also a big step up from the traditional 20-60x eyepiece from both brands in terms of utility. The 80mm objective lens does lose about 20% of light compare to the 88mm, which is a hard physical limit to overcome. You may lose a couple minutes at twilight, but you get a much lighter and slimmer package.

Anyway, there's no wrong choice at this price point. With any of the top scopes, you can't blame on optics if you can't find and ID something ;).
 
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