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Message: <blockquote data-quote="oleaf" data-source="post: 1313703" data-attributes="member: 52491">Hi Kevin,Well I was commenting to some that believe $80-$100OE bins are selling at $1000+ retail.As for price performance... I just drew a comparison to someone buying 5 bins to get to a price over 10 years against buying a costly euro-bin.  You can say it's not a fair comparison or manipulative... but it is a truthful and realistic comparison."rate of innovation in China for bin design and production"  OK... this really stopped me in my tracks and tells me you're missing and not placing value on a big part of the development of any product.First... no Chinese OE is driving innovation.  They rely on their R&D departments located in various parts of Europe and Japan (namely Austria, Germany, Czech) and other good brands that demand innovation. This takes nothing away from the hard working people who work for these OEM companies... but if you call the new Hawke/Promaster an "innovation" then you're truly missing something.Please don't pin this as a nationality issue either.  It's not. And sorry for what some will call a cheap shot at Chinese OEMs... it's not.In a sentence you've totally devalued design innovation, elegant industrial design, scientific research, etc, etc. from companies that might or might not follow the lowest wage rate.The direct rate of "innovation in China for bin design and production" is in direct proportion to the developments made by the market leaders.  And... always seems to follow... funny how that is.I'm not trying to make anyone mad but just trying to illustrate a point.  Be careful of always trying to get the best for the cheapest.  How would you like your living to depend on this?  Could you work that hard?Look at the states... seems we've backed ourselves into a pretty deep corner.  How do we get our products cheaper still to keep on buying, buying, buying?  Where do you go from here?Sure, the Hawke/Promasters are cheap and good (maybe great) but tell me what is innovative about that?  I've heard through the grapevine that the Promasters are sold through camera shops and not the biggest bin retailers.  I wonder why?  My guess is EagleOptics has a deal with their OEM to not compete directly with the Vortex brand. How come EO doesn't carry the Promaster wonderbin?  I predict the new re-tooled Vipers and Razors will equal the Hawke/Promaster soon.  Seems to me the OEM slipped it to other brands (maybe their own partners) before Vortex releases their new bins.  Oh the pitfalls of not making your own stuff.  I could be full of "stuff" for that matter! I'm looking at this from the outside as well!We all have our own personal reasons for what we buy.  Please don't discount the hard work of the people driving "innovation" no matter where it comes from (Europe, China, Japan, USA, and elsewhere). Just trying to illustrate a point... correct me if I'm off base.  But, I've worked for companies in Germany, USA, Taiwan, China and still do to this day.Cheers</blockquote>

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