I found that bird's colorful plumages reflect their needs for foods and enviroments (1 Viewer)

[Andy Hurley]

One showing them tucking into Spam fritters with a pint of Guinness would convince me. :t:

Chris

funny you should say that Chris, but there is evidence of Toucans drinking Guiness if their posters are to be believed B

Sorry Mike xposted...great minds? nah its the fools bit I fear

 

[chris butterworth]

You both forgot the Ostrich is particularly fond of a glass of Guinness as well.

Chris

 

[Larry Lade]

Some birds seem to favor whiskey; Old Crow, Wild Turkey, Fighting Cock, Eagle Rare, etc.

 

[Andy Hurley]

Or Whisky, the real stuff, Lol, The Famous Grouse

 

[chris butterworth]

O..........
M.........
G............

:eek!:

It's all true. Ostriches like Guinness. Ostriches are black and white. :smoke:

Chris

 

[Andy Hurley]

Time for bed said Florence...
..boing said Zebedee


Goodnight all

 

[Jumbo]

How do we resolve the contradiction between natural selection and beauty sense?
What I was saying is that following-beauty selection is not a principle. It is only a rule derived from natural selection principle.

My explanation is that first the need relationship (included in nature) selected birds' sense organ for beauty, later female sense organ for beauty selected male's plumages.

It helps that you've added some detail to your initial conjecture.

In essence it sounds very similar to Endler's theories first published in the 70's (his 1992 paper on "sensory bias" is a classic).
Sinervo (1997) offers this précis..."biases are present in the ancestral species and they remain latent in a population until a male evolves a mutation. Because a mutation in ornament "exploits" pre-existing sensory bias found in females, the theory of sensory bias is also referred to as sensory exploitation. Certain stimuli (e.g., colors, shapes, movement) may be useful in certain contexts (e.g., feeding and foraging) and the nervous system of females (and males) is honed by natural selection to be efficient at picking out food items from a world that is overly rich in extraneous stimuli. In a sense, these parts of the nervous and sensory system may be co-opted by sexual selection and a mutant male that displays a trait that triggers a heightened response in females may have an advantage".

Endler's approach seems far more refined, and robust, than simply suggesting plummage/shape mimics certain food. It is that final and overly simplistic element that is problematic IMO. [Mono summed it all up nicely back in post #153!].

 

[morninglight]

funny you should say that Chris, but there is evidence of Toucans drinking Guiness if their posters are to be believed B

Sorry Mike xposted...great minds? nah its the fools bit I fear

The toucan's yellow breast shows that it must like eating banana, mango, and pawpaw.

 

[morninglight]

As to this bird, big beak is not ornament. the yellow podetium should be imitating a banana.

 

[morninglight]

It helps that you've added some detail to your initial conjecture.

In essence it sounds very similar to Endler's theories first published in the 70's (his 1992 paper on "sensory bias" is a classic).
Sinervo (1997) offers this précis..."biases are present in the ancestral species and they remain latent in a population until a male evolves a mutation. Because a mutation in ornament "exploits" pre-existing sensory bias found in females, the theory of sensory bias is also referred to as sensory exploitation. Certain stimuli (e.g., colors, shapes, movement) may be useful in certain contexts (e.g., feeding and foraging) and the nervous system of females (and males) is honed by natural selection to be efficient at picking out food items from a world that is overly rich in extraneous stimuli. In a sense, these parts of the nervous and sensory system may be co-opted by sexual selection and a mutant male that displays a trait that triggers a heightened response in females may have an advantage".

Endler's approach seems far more refined, and robust, than simply suggesting plummage/shape mimics certain food. It is that final and overly simplistic element that is problematic IMO. [Mono summed it all up nicely back in post #153!].

Thank you for your information. The research of bird's plumage is only a part of my researches. There is a webpage with a introducation to my research process: http://survivor99.com/lcg/books/beauty/english/preface.htm

Why can I discover the secrecy of birds' plumages? It is not because of my luck. Before my discovery, I have researched aethethatics and color vision for more than 30 years.

 

[chris butterworth]

Now you've moved on to Toucans and Hornbills. Are you seriously suggesting that these two species have evolved their present appearance since the invention of agriculture? In the case of the Toucan, within the last 500 years?

Chris

 

[Peter C.]

Oh, who knows, Chris - perhaps he is.

I think Science has long since "left the building" in this case.

 

[ovenbird43]

The toucan's yellow breast shows that it must like eating banana, mango, and pawpaw.

None of which are native to the Neotropics (to which toucans are restricted). They actually eat primarily figs, palm fruits, and the like.

 

[Andy Hurley]

Toucan, rich dark body, creamy bill....Guinness makes more sense. It also shows not only "beauty sense" but nutritional sense, Do the still serve stout to patients to build them up in hospitals in Ireland? and taste sense too

 

[morninglight]

Now you've moved on to Toucans and Hornbills. Are you seriously suggesting that these two species have evolved their present appearance since the invention of agriculture? In the case of the Toucan, within the last 500 years?

Chris

These fruits would not be so big before. I do not doubt that there were some fruits with this color and form long time ago.

 

[morninglight]

Now I know that this bird is called "bee-eater".
http://www.arkive.org/european-bee-eater/merops-apiaster/

Is it occasional that the bee eater has the lower jaw with yellow fine fair that is very similar to yellow fine fair on the bee?

A reasonable explanation is that food need relationship beween the bird and the bee selected the bird's pleasant sensation organs. Later, the beauty sense organ of the female bird selected the male's plumage.

 

[Reuven_M]

Now I know that this bird is called "bee-eater".
http://www.arkive.org/european-bee-eater/merops-apiaster/

Is it occasional that the bee eater has the lower jaw with yellow fine fair that is very similar to yellow fine fair on the bee?

A reasonable explanation is that food need relationship beween the bird and the bee selected the bird's pleasant sensation organs. Later, the beauty sense organ of the female bird selected the male's plumage.

It may be a reasonable explanation, but unless you can provide some actual evidence (e.g. that bee-eater species with yellow throats eat more bees and wasps than those without yellow throats, which would require actual research in the field) there is absolutely no point in posting example after dubious example.

 

[Barred Wobbler]

Does anyone remember the 'Giant Raven' thread from about 7 or 8 years ago?

I seem to recall that heralded from Canada also - not that I've got anything against Canada, I hasten to add. My wife's sister lives there.

EDIT. MY apologies. The Giant Raven thread came from the USA and it was only five years ago - seems like longer.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=106640&highlight=giant+raven

 

[Andy Hurley]

I have discovered what I believe to be scientific FACT.
Certain geese have developed religious belief which is clearly reflected in their plumage.
The evidence I have gathered so far is a bit cryptic, but I think with your help we can prove my theory beyond doubt.
Barnacle Geese, in german Nonnengans = NUN Goose, certainly displays the usual black and white wimple colours on their heads. This is proof of religious belief and as God's will cannot be refuted. To back this up with mainline scientific evidence, they form groups and spend most of the year in remote places, only to go on reatreat during the winter months. I am looking for further unrefuteable evidence from the more scholarly amongst you that perhaps other geese species, and I don't just limit this to the Branta geese, display this sort of higher intelligence which is of couse reflected in their plumage.
Or do you think I'm falling into bad habits on this?

 

[chris butterworth]

I have discovered what I believe to be scientific FACT.
Certain geese have developed religious belief which is clearly reflected in their plumage.
The evidence I have gathered so far is a bit cryptic, but I think with your help we can prove my theory beyond doubt.
Barnacle Geese, in german Nonnengans = NUN Goose, certainly displays the usual black and white wimple colours on their heads. This is proof of religious belief and as God's will cannot be refuted. To back this up with mainline scientific evidence, they form groups and spend most of the year in remote places, only to go on reatreat during the winter months. I am looking for further unrefuteable evidence from the more scholarly amongst you that perhaps other geese species, and I don't just limit this to the Branta geese, display this sort of higher intelligence which is of couse reflected in their plumage.
Or do you think I'm falling into bad habits on this?

Put the glass down Andy, and step away from the bottle. :t:

Chris