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ID help for a locustella warbler - India (1 Viewer)

sbiswas.geo

Well-known member
Posting a locustella warbler that I have sighted in West Bengal, eastern India, in Dec 2020. It has been suggested to me as a Spotted Bush Warbler by a group of Indian experts, but after seeing various media online about Spotted and Baikal Bush Warblers, now I am not at all sure about the morphological features to differentiate between these two species. Any insights into this and any further suggestion towards the correct ID of this bird will be highly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Video of bird calling:


P1560048E1.jpgP1560049E1.jpgP1560089E1.jpgP1560108E1.jpgP1560148E1.jpgP1560189E1.jpgP1560170E1.jpgP1560165E1.jpg
P1560175E1.jpg
 
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Thank you for the response, Brian. But can Baikal and Spotted be separated on call alone? I was told that without a song they cannot be identified. I added another photo for better view of primaries, if it helps.
 
Hi, sorry I can’t help with the ID. Just wanted to let you know that per forum rules, the location needs to be in the thread title. Thanks for doing so in the future.
 
Hi Sandeep and welcome to Birdforum!

Thanks for posting the additional image which I had already viewed here https://ebird.org/india/checklist/S77983735 I am still struggling with elements of the wing formula, not least I am unable to see any clear emarginations; Baikal lacks an emarginated p5. In your latest image, one simply cannot determine whether or not there is an emargination owing to lack of sharpness, while emarginations to p3 and p4 are hidden behind the sloping vertical stem. Similarly, working out WP (wing point) is tricky since p3 (right wing) appears to have a damaged tip. Wing formula are very similar (Spotted has a more rounded wing) and really require closer scrutiny + measurement in the hand.

The reduced crescents to the under tail coverts seem odd (worn?) but you have been advised that's within the range of variation. Regarding spots, can I just make out a couple of discreet dark marks visible on the r/h side of the lower throat in image 4?

With regards vocalisations, similarly, my understanding is that Spotted and Baikal are only safely distinguishable by song.

I took the liberty of sending your eBird link to Thai experts for comment. I will forward any response direct via PM in due course.

Grahame.
 
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Calls

Spotted Bush

Baikal Bush
TBH, 41403 and 394028 sound very similar to me. So does 116916 and 394026. :(
 
Hi Sandeep and welcome to Birdforum!

Thanks for posting the additional image which I had already viewed here https://ebird.org/india/checklist/S77983735 I am still struggling with elements of the wing formula, not least I am unable to see any clear emarginations; Baikal lacks an emarginated p5. In your latest image, one simply cannot determine whether or not there is an emargination owing to lack of sharpness, while emarginations to p3 and p4 are hidden behind the sloping vertical stem. Similarly, working out WP (wing point) is tricky since p3 (right wing) appears to have a damaged tip. Wing formula are very similar (Spotted has a more rounded wing) and really require closer scrutiny + measurement in the hand.

The reduced crescents to the under tail coverts seem odd (worn?) but you have been advised that's within the range of variation. Regarding spots, can I just make out a couple of discreet dark marks visible on the r/h side of the lower throat in image 4?

With regards vocalisations, similarly, my understanding is that Spotted and Baikal are only safely distinguishable by song.

I took the liberty of sending your eBird link to Thai experts for comment. I will forward any response direct via PM in due course.

Grahame.
Thank you so much, Grahame.

I have another video which I forgot to attach. Here it goes....

 
This bird still remains a mystery. I have received varying feedbacks from different experts. I have decided to keep it is simply as Locustella sp. for the time being.


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"My feeling is that this is one of the longer-tailed 'Bradypterus', the proportion of the tail length to the body appears too long for Spotted & Baikal Bush.

The upperparts of Brown Bush (luteoventris) should appear warmer toned than this bird shows, the undertail-coverts are uniform and it lacks a supercilium. On this basis I'm ruling it out.

The various races of Russet Bush (mandelli) should appear darker above and below, and the supercilium is indistinct and doesn't extend beyond the rear of the eye. . Also, mandelli should have broad conspicuous pale tips to the undertail-coverts - almost crescent shaped (as do Spotted & Baikal Bush) - which this bird lacks - on this bird the pale area is restricted to the very tip of the undertail-coverts and doesn't form a crescent.

The feature that I picked up on from the photos is the white lower edge to the eye that joins with the supercilium in front of the eye - forming a whitish Vee, broadest at the eye (with a dark loral spot) and coming to its apex towards the bill base. Not every picture shows this but enough do to make me think it's real rather than an artifact of the photo at an instant in time. So I'm leaning towards Chinese Bush (tacsanowskius) which shows this feature - if you have Reed & Bush Warblers see p. 177, particularly the lower two images. The prominence and extent of the supercilium varies, but on some individuals it extends behind the eye as in this bird.

The pale tips to the undertail-coverts also fit Chinese Bush as they are solid rather than crescentic in shape - though usually more extensive than this bird shows - perhaps their prominence/extent is age related?

If you know of other images of this bird, or high res images that may show greater detail, I'd be interested to see them."

-- Peter Kennerley (UK-based author of Reed and Bush Warblers).

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"It should be noted Chinese, like Baikal, is a long distance migrant so likely more prone to vagrancy/extralimital records. But in any case both would be aware of the possible significance in terms of location.

I have copied Peter's comments to Phil."

-- Grahame Walbridge (England)

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"Re the Indian Bradyopterus you shared, there did not seem to be a clear view of under tail coverts. Based on breast colouration, absence of greyness around head, Spotted should be ruled out, yet tail too long for davidi, so I assume Brown (although not as obviously yellowish on the lower mandible as some Brown). But that is what I would make it."

-- Phil Round (Thailand)

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"I agree with Peter on the Chinese Bush Warbler identification.

However, although I'm familiar with Baikal, I have had very limited experiences on Spotted and Chinese Bush Warblers as they are both rare in Thailand."

-- Wich'yanan L. (Thailand)

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"... look like Spotted/Baikal Bush Warbler (I'm leaning more towards Spotted BW). Check out the undertail coverts, you wouldn't see such dark undertail coverts with pale tips like that in Chinese BW. In Chinese BW, the undertail coverts are very pale sandy brown with slight contrasting broad white tips (but in a quick glance, you barely see the contrast). Overall body plumage of Chinese BW is also much paler, more sandy brown than this. Check out these photos of Chinese BW for comparison. Note overall colouration and undertail patterns. "

-- Ayuwat Jearwattanakanok (Thailand)

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"I am in total agreement with Ayuwat. I see nothing that points towards Chinese in any photo. Chinese is such a paler faced bird, larger billed, paler underparts, and most importantly, the under tail coverts are wrong for Chinese. I don’t think the tail is long enough either.

Silent spotted and baikal are a very difficult species pair, as both show variable throat markings, where the extremes can be identified but those with little markings are much more tricky, and playback would resolved the issue.

Given that Spotted is much more numerous than Baikal in Northeast India, I’d label them all as Spotted until told otherwise - no feature discounts Spotted."

-- James Eaton (England)
 
Another image, offering a better view of flight feathers:

View attachment 1367997

Unobstructed view of face:

View attachment 1368004
This bird still remains a mystery. I have received varying feedbacks from different experts. I have decided to keep it is simply as Locustella sp. for the time being.


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"My feeling is that this is one of the longer-tailed 'Bradypterus', the proportion of the tail length to the body appears too long for Spotted & Baikal Bush.

The upperparts of Brown Bush (luteoventris) should appear warmer toned than this bird shows, the undertail-coverts are uniform and it lacks a supercilium. On this basis I'm ruling it out.

The various races of Russet Bush (mandelli) should appear darker above and below, and the supercilium is indistinct and doesn't extend beyond the rear of the eye. . Also, mandelli should have broad conspicuous pale tips to the undertail-coverts - almost crescent shaped (as do Spotted & Baikal Bush) - which this bird lacks - on this bird the pale area is restricted to the very tip of the undertail-coverts and doesn't form a crescent.

The feature that I picked up on from the photos is the white lower edge to the eye that joins with the supercilium in front of the eye - forming a whitish Vee, broadest at the eye (with a dark loral spot) and coming to its apex towards the bill base. Not every picture shows this but enough do to make me think it's real rather than an artifact of the photo at an instant in time. So I'm leaning towards Chinese Bush (tacsanowskius) which shows this feature - if you have Reed & Bush Warblers see p. 177, particularly the lower two images. The prominence and extent of the supercilium varies, but on some individuals it extends behind the eye as in this bird.

The pale tips to the undertail-coverts also fit Chinese Bush as they are solid rather than crescentic in shape - though usually more extensive than this bird shows - perhaps their prominence/extent is age related?

If you know of other images of this bird, or high res images that may show greater detail, I'd be interested to see them."

-- Peter Kennerley (UK-based author of Reed and Bush Warblers).

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"It should be noted Chinese, like Baikal, is a long distance migrant so likely more prone to vagrancy/extralimital records. But in any case both would be aware of the possible significance in terms of location.

I have copied Peter's comments to Phil."

-- Grahame Walbridge (England)

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"Re the Indian Bradyopterus you shared, there did not seem to be a clear view of under tail coverts. Based on breast colouration, absence of greyness around head, Spotted should be ruled out, yet tail too long for davidi, so I assume Brown (although not as obviously yellowish on the lower mandible as some Brown). But that is what I would make it."

-- Phil Round (Thailand)

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"I agree with Peter on the Chinese Bush Warbler identification.

However, although I'm familiar with Baikal, I have had very limited experiences on Spotted and Chinese Bush Warblers as they are both rare in Thailand."

-- Wich'yanan L. (Thailand)

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"... look like Spotted/Baikal Bush Warbler (I'm leaning more towards Spotted BW). Check out the undertail coverts, you wouldn't see such dark undertail coverts with pale tips like that in Chinese BW. In Chinese BW, the undertail coverts are very pale sandy brown with slight contrasting broad white tips (but in a quick glance, you barely see the contrast). Overall body plumage of Chinese BW is also much paler, more sandy brown than this. Check out these photos of Chinese BW for comparison. Note overall colouration and undertail patterns. "

-- Ayuwat Jearwattanakanok (Thailand)

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"I am in total agreement with Ayuwat. I see nothing that points towards Chinese in any photo. Chinese is such a paler faced bird, larger billed, paler underparts, and most importantly, the under tail coverts are wrong for Chinese. I don’t think the tail is long enough either.

Silent spotted and baikal are a very difficult species pair, as both show variable throat markings, where the extremes can be identified but those with little markings are much more tricky, and playback would resolved the issue.

Given that Spotted is much more numerous than Baikal in Northeast India, I’d label them all as Spotted until told otherwise - no feature discounts Spotted."

-- James Eaton (England)

Posting a locustella warbler that I have sighted in West Bengal, eastern India, in Dec 2020. It has been suggested to me as a Spotted Bush Warbler by a group of Indian experts, but after seeing various media online about Spotted and Baikal Bush Warblers, now I am not at all sure about the morphological features to differentiate between these two species. Any insights into this and any further suggestion towards the correct ID of this bird will be highly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Video of bird calling:


View attachment 1366908View attachment 1366909View attachment 1366910View attachment 1366911View attachment 1366912View attachment 1366914View attachment 1366915View attachment 1366916
View attachment 1367091
I don’t claim to be an expert in relation to the birds of NE India and have no experience of Spotted or Baikal Bush Warblers but my instant reaction to the original post was Cetti’s Warbler. I realise that West Bengal is well to the east of the nearest records on ebird (between Uttarakhand and Uttar Pradesh but the call in the first video is spot on for Cetti’s and the absence of obvious spotting on the upper breast seems to rule out either of the two bush warbler species. The pale-tipped undertail coverts also closely match Cetti’s in pattern and length. However, the clincher for me was images 7 and 10 (P1560170E1 and P1560105E1) which appear to show just 10 tail feathers. As far as I am aware Locustella all have 12 retrices, certainly those species likely to occur in the UK, whilst Cetti’s has just 10.

The definition is better in the second video posted and I have attached a screen grab, which to my eye also seems to show only 10 tail feathers.

Also see images at: ID Guide: Spotted Bush Warbler and Baikal Bush Warbler - Shanghai Birding 上海观鸟

And calls: XC628005 Cetti's Warbler (Cettia cetti) :: xeno-canto
 

Attachments

  • Tail 1.JPG
    Tail 1.JPG
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I don’t claim to be an expert in relation to the birds of NE India and have no experience of Spotted or Baikal Bush Warblers but my instant reaction to the original post was Cetti’s Warbler. I realise that West Bengal is well to the east of the nearest records on ebird (between Uttarakhand and Uttar Pradesh but the call in the first video is spot on for Cetti’s and the absence of obvious spotting on the upper breast seems to rule out either of the two bush warbler species. The pale-tipped undertail coverts also closely match Cetti’s in pattern and length. However, the clincher for me was images 7 and 10 (P1560170E1 and P1560105E1) which appear to show just 10 tail feathers. As far as I am aware Locustella all have 12 retrices, certainly those species likely to occur in the UK, whilst Cetti’s has just 10.

The definition is better in the second video posted and I have attached a screen grab, which to my eye also seems to show only 10 tail feathers.

Also see images at: ID Guide: Spotted Bush Warbler and Baikal Bush Warbler - Shanghai Birding 上海观鸟

And calls: XC628005 Cetti's Warbler (Cettia cetti) :: xeno-canto
Thanks for the input but isn't Cetti's more orangey on upperparts and whiter on the upperparts? Its face does not seem to match Cetti's, which seems very grey/white in online images. Cetti's will be super super rare in West Bengal. No records exist beyond north-western India while Baikal and Spotted are far more abundant here, and Chinese is known to occur historically but no recent record. All of them give out that grating call and I have been told that only a song is diagnostic when it comes to their vocalization.
 
Re-opening this old thread upon the recent discovery of West Himalayan Bush Warbler from the state of West Bengal. A recent study of song analysis of multiple assumed Spotted Bush Warblers were found to be actually West Himalayan, and they seem to be not uncommon wintering migrants in this region. One of those recordings were from yours truly and I got an armchair lifer. But coming back to this mysterious locustella, could the indistinct undertail coverts and darker brown upperparts here suggest a West Himalayan?
 
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