ID tips for Blue Butterflies (1 Viewer)

[Gavia_immer]

Hi, Cristian!

It is a Plebejus species, most likely Silver-studded Blue (Plebejus argus). It hasn't a cell spot, has very broad white edges and the classics studs inside the orange lunules of the Plebejus species.

It looks like Silver-studded but I am a bit confused as the resolution of the pic is so good that we should see the diagnostic spine in the tibia of Silver-studded Blue and I cannot see it. |:S|

Must have a look to see if any other species matches better your Blue.

 

[balkantrek]

What do you think about it being Reverdin's Blue (Plebejus argyrognomon)? One of the key features of this species is the shape of the black lunules (v-shaped spots) on the underside hindwing....they are rounded or flat....whereas with Silver-studded Blue and indeed Idas Blue they are sagittate or more sharply pointed.

If you look at Cristian's photo it appears to me that these lunules are indeed rounded rather than pointed.

Any thoughts?

 

[Gavia_immer]

Balkantrek, I am doing research because I suspect too that it might be Reverdin's. I have read about the shape of the black dots too but, which ones are you refering to? I can hardly find any difference with argus and idas and this is driving me crazy.

 

[balkantrek]

On the hindwing you have the black spots with blue eyes, then under these you have the orange patches with black 'bottoms'. I am talking about these black bottoms to the orange patches. According to my books these black lunules are more rounded in Reverdin's while in Silver-studded and Idas they are more sharply pointed, triangular, arrow-like. certainly in Cristian's photo they are rounded and not sharp pointed.

Do you understand what I am trying to point out? Hope its clear!|=)|

 

[Gavia_immer]

On the hindwing you have the black spots with blue eyes, then under these you have the orange patches with black 'bottoms'. I am talking about these black bottoms to the orange patches. According to my books these black lunules are more rounded in Reverdin's while in Silver-studded and Idas they are more sharply pointed, triangular, arrow-like. certainly in Cristian's photo they are rounded and not sharp pointed.

Do you understand what I am trying to point out? Hope its clear!|=)|

Perfectly clear, Balkantrek! Thanks a lot!! :t: Silly me was always looking at the black dots forming an arch on the underwing |:$| No wonder I couldn't find any difference. Didn't think of 'the other black dots'.

Must give another look to all this stuff, but it will be tomorrow. It is awfully late.

If my boss at work would know that I am half sleep in the morning due to insects that I don't even have a chance to see in real life (Reverdin's Blue in this case), my job would be at stake :-O

EDIT: Of course, I couldn't wait till tomorrow and quickly chequed some Silver-studded Blue pics and definitively there are always a couple of more pointed black dots. I am seriously inclined to think Cristian's is a Reverdin's Blue too. :t:

Hope somebody else gives an opinion though.

 

[madamcoolpix]

Well, if I had to put a name to that butterfly, that is what I would say I assume it was taken in Spain. It is a Polyommatus for sure: classical underwing pattern and white fringes. In the upperwing, it shows orange marks on both forewing and hindwing, which rules out Amanda's. No cell spot, which rules out Common Blue. I know I said before 'never trust the size of the spots for ID a Blue', but in this case, that kind of spotting is too typical of Escher's. It simply doesn't look right for Chapman's. The size of the butterfly should be definitive. Smallish, would mean Chapman's, biggish would mean Escher's. Do you remember it?

Sorry to be so late replying, Gavia and the others!!! I've been too busy and couldn't come back here to check the answer and what else was going on with the Blue Butterflies ID problems.

I can't tell exactly the size, but sure it wasn't particularly small, so I suppose we can say it's an Eschers!!! o It doesn't look like Chapman's to me at all, by the markings.

 

[Cristian Mihai]

Another Blue - pic taken also on the Black Sea coast on June 26th.

 

[Davebutterflyman]

Hi all.

This is a fantastic thread Gavia and so useful for any blue addicts or otherwise!.I have done a fair bit of european butterfly watching over the years,France,Italy Switzerland,Poland,Greece etc and i know how difficult it is to id this particular group of butterflies.What i have read so far is fascinating and hugely constructive and you and all the contributers on here deserve a big pat on the back....great stuff!.

Dave.

 

[Gavia_immer]

Hi all.

This is a fantastic thread Gavia and so useful for any blue addicts or otherwise!.I have done a fair bit of european butterfly watching over the years,France,Italy Switzerland,Poland,Greece etc and i know how difficult it is to id this particular group of butterflies.What i have read so far is fascinating and hugely constructive and you and all the contributers on here deserve a big pat on the back....great stuff!.

Dave.

Thanks a lot for your words, Dave! It is always encouraging to see all the effort is worth for somebody. No need to say that you are very welcome to participate and any contribution you might do will be much appreciated.

If you have any unidentified or confusing Blue pics, you can post them in Balkantrek's thread for ID and discussion:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=144756

we are already having loads of fun (and terrible headaches too :-O ) there. :t:

 

[Cristian Mihai]

Hi Gavia,

What about my pic from post #67?

 

[Gavia_immer]

Christian, your last butterly is very puzzling. I am totally sure it is a Polyommatus. Pity it doesn't show the cell to see if there is a cell spot or not. The thing is that it doesn't match any of the Polyommatus I know. There is a big chance it might be False Eros.

Balkantrek, you have the 'Butterflies of Europe' by Tristran Lanfranchis. Please, tell us what it says about False Eros. I am completely lost with that one. I know it is reasonably easy to ID by the upperwing but there seems to be no consensus about the underwing.

 

[balkantrek]

Christian, your last butterly is very puzzling. I am totally sure it is a Polyommatus. Pity it doesn't show the cell to see if there is a cell spot or not. The thing is that it doesn't match any of the Polyommatus I know. There is a big chance it might be False Eros.

Balkantrek, you have the 'Butterflies of Europe' by Tristran Lanfranchis. Please, tell us what it says about False Eros. I am completely lost with that one. I know it is reasonably easy to ID by the upperwing but there seems to be no consensus about the underwing.

The Lanfranchis book works on the key system and doesn't actually have much to say directly about the underside of False Eros, but I don't believe it is this. Firstly, there are no records of False Eros in Romania to my knowledge. Of course that doesn't make it impossible. However, as far as I know, False Eros is a mountain butterfly and not recorded on coasts and below about 700m at absolute minimum. It seems, therefore, almost certain that this species photographed on the Romanian Black Sea coast is something different.

I have to ask, what is wrong with it being simply a Common Blue. We can't see whether or not the cell-spot is there. But assuming it is, then what would rule Common Blue out? It seems a pretty good match to me.

 

[Gavia_immer]

I have to ask, what is wrong with it being simply a Common Blue. We can't see whether or not the cell-spot is there. But assuming it is, then what would rule Common Blue out? It seems a pretty good match to me.

That is an excellent question, Balkantrek!

I have never seen a pic of a Common Blue with such a grey colour on the underwings. Which means nothing, really. But I am completely sure it is a Polyommatus and it isn't Amanda's, Escher's or Chapman's. That only leaves Common and False Eros (Eros Blue I know for sure is not found in Rumania). With the information you provided me, we can rule out False Eros. Which leaves only Common Blue, which is a good possibility, although, as I mentioned before, is a bit extrange to me due to to underwing colour.

I am sorry, Cristian :-C Never get too excited untill all the possibilities have been checked.

 

[balkantrek]

I have never seen a pic of a Common Blue with such a grey colour on the underwings. Which means nothing, really.

The Lafranchis book illustrates two variations in the underside of Common Blue. In one of these he emphasizes that the underside can be grey in spring and autumn broods.

 

[Cristian Mihai]

I am sorry, Cristian :-C Never get too excited untill all the possibilities have been checked.

No problem Gavia! Really.

 

[Gavia_immer]

The Lafranchis book illustrates two variations in the underside of Common Blue. In one of these he emphasizes that the underside can be grey in spring and autumn broods.

Well, I am afraid the final conclusion is that it is indeed Common Blue.

One good thing, we all have learnt something else

 

[balkantrek]

One good thing, we all have learnt something else

Yes. These Blue and Erebia threads are turning out to be exactly what we hoped for, extremely educational!!

Its great that we are having input and photos from several different parts of Europe, and with all of us pooling our knowledge, experience and sources.

An excellent piece of Pan-European team-work!

 

[Gavia_immer]

Yes. These Blue and Erebia threads are turning out to be exactly what we hoped for, extremely educational!!

Its great that we are having input and photos from several different parts of Europe, and with all of us pooling our knowledge, experience and sources.

An excellent piece of Pan-European team-work!

:clap::loveme: EXACTLY!! :loveme::clap:

By the way, I hope I will post the Lysandra chapters next weekend. We will have more stuff to work on!

 

[balkantrek]

And I plan to post a few more as yet unidentified Blues for us to feed our minds!

 

[Cristian Mihai]

And I plan to upload soon some nice pics with a Scarce Swallowtail (taken yesterday in Bucharest) and to take some more with Blue butterflies and not only...