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INDIGENOUS Communities ARE Better At Preserving Biodiversity, Research Shows (1 Viewer)

elkcub

Silicon Valley, California
United States
As filtered through the “thoughts and thought processes” of Chosun and other “Pale Aborigines” you mean? Think I’ll take a pass. . ..

... And I've passed that deplorable statement on to the management for their consideration.
 

fugl

Well-known member
Broadly speaking, we have representation from two cultural orientations in this discussion, each using English words, but often having different ideational meanings.

When it comes to "science," to which my life has been devoted for 60+ yrs, I'm forever amazed and delighted at the vast number of new (to me) fields that exist outside my own specialty, and to which I am largely ignorant. If you read the attached article entitled "Australian Aboriginal Geomythology: Eyewitness Accounts of Cosmic Impacts?" please pay careful attention to the authors' definition of "myth" and their efforts to avoid cultural disrespect. In this article, an effort is made to assess the information quality and insight provided by Aboriginal lore and how it correlates or relates to the current scientific understanding of astrophysical events.

Interesting article but hardly supportive of the thesis that oral tradition accurately records long-ago events in the real world, even quite spectacular events such as big meteor impacts. The following is from the paper’s Conclusions

“None of the events described in Aboriginal oral traditions correspond to currently known impact events that occurred during the human history of Australia. Furthermore, although some impact events caused craters during Australian human history (e.g. Boxhole, Veevers, Henbury), there is no (publicly available) oral tradition of witnesses to these events.
On the other hand, we find that the number of stories describing eyewitness impact events in the oral traditions greatly exceeds the number expected from current estimates of meteorite influx rates and impact intervals. We conclude that either the current meteor literature severely underestimates the impact rate (and there are hotly contested arguments supporting this) or else the stories are not based on witnessed events.”

As an aside, I note the late 19th- and early and mid-20th-century collection date of much of the source material. Nothing surprising in this, of course; the wells of traditional lore have been running dry for decades just about everywhere in the world.

The constant references throughout the article to “Western” science is slightly annoying. What other kind of science is there?
 
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elkcub

Silicon Valley, California
United States
Since Fugl elected to post only the first two paragraphs of the Conclusion, I'm posting the complete section to avoid any potential distortion of what the authors really had to say.

7.0 Conclusion

None of the events described in Aboriginal oral traditions correspond to currently known
impact events that occurred during the human history of Australia. Furthermore, although
some impact events caused craters during Australian human history (e.g. Boxhole,
Veevers, Henbury), there is no (publicly available) oral tradition of witnesses to these
events.

On the other hand, we find that the number of stories describing eyewitness impact events
in the oral traditions greatly exceeds the number expected from current estimates of
meteorite influx rates and impact intervals. We conclude that either the current meteor
literature severely underestimates the impact rate (and there are hotly contested arguments
supporting this) or else the stories are not based on witnessed events.

We examine three possible explanations for why the stories may not be based on
witnessed events: 1) the stories are post-contact and have incorporated information from Western science,
2) that the Aboriginal people independently deduced that impact craters
were formed from a cosmic impact, or 3) that a single or small number of events were
incorporated into oral traditions and spread to other communities across the continent.
While we cite evidence supporting each explanation, we are unable to conclude with any
certainty which explanation best explains the discrepancy.

We suggest that oral traditions may be used to identify impact structures and meteorites
unknown to Western science. Besides the plethora of useful scientific information that
would benefit various scientific fields, the information gathered from an impact structure
described in Aboriginal oral tradition, including its age and impact effects, could show
how some oral traditions evolve over long periods of time. Such studies may also be
useful in modeling alleged submarine Holocene impact events, such as Mahuika, Tabban,
or Kanmare. For this reason, we encourage investigations and surveys of the areas where
cosmic impact stories were recorded, which may shed light on this elusive problem.

Ed
 

fugl

Well-known member
Since Fugl elected to post only the first two paragraphs of the Conclusion, I'm posting the complete section to avoid any potential distortion of what the authors really had to say.

The first 2 paragraphs contain the gist. The rest, as the reader can see for himself, boils down to going through the motions (“there are 3 possible explanations” for the negative results) and wishful thinking.
 

elkcub

Silicon Valley, California
United States
The physicist Freeman Dyson passed away today at the age of 96. Without further comment, I'm attaching his recent writing: Scientific Dogmatism Still Alive, which appeared as a Forward to a report about carbon dioxide by Indur Goklany. I think it's appropriate for this thread, and one or two others as well.

Ed
 

Attachments

  • Freeman Dyson .pdf
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Sangahyando

Well-known member
If you take the trouble to look into the subject (rather than just making it up as you go) you will find that procedures were incorporated to prevent "anyone" from making up stuff, and also to ensure that the information (i.e., knowledge) contained in the lore would pass on reliably over time.
What subject, oral tradition in general or Australian traditions in particular? While you're at it (unlike Quantum Mechanics or most other STEM topics, history seems to be a topic everyone feels free to write treatises about, for some reason), do everyone a favour and look up "source criticism". Might also want to familiarize yourself with the meaning of the term "indigenous".
 

elkcub

Silicon Valley, California
United States
What subject, oral tradition in general or Australian traditions in particular? While you're at it (unlike Quantum Mechanics or most other STEM topics, history seems to be a topic everyone feels free to write treatises about, for some reason), do everyone a favour and look up "source criticism". Might also want to familiarize yourself with the meaning of the term "indigenous".

I don't have the time right now to go into detail, but what I said about "oral tradition" related to what was said in the Wiki article about the mechanics of the process going forward in time from the past. What I can make out about "source criticism," is that it relates to finding the 'source' (origin?) from written rather than oral materials looking backward in time. If so, what are you suggesting?

BTW, while contemplating these things, we might give thought to our shiny new "scientific" climate/habitat reconstructions that don't seem to jibe very well with even recent written or oral histories, e.g., the little ice age, Medieval warm period, and so forth.

As for capitalizing the particular word "Indigenous," you appear to be hung up on the notion that it must always be used in exactly the same way, regardless of context or current convention. Broadly, I guess, this issue is one of "language evolution," but as Chosun pointed out it's also an issue of cultural civility.
 

fugl

Well-known member
... And I've passed that deplorable statement on to the management for their consideration.

Missed your asinine comment first time round. . ..

"Pale aborigine" is from an article Chosun provided the link to in the long-dormant "Dark Emu" thread. It refers to light-skinned people with little or no Aboriginal DNA (or lived-experience of Aboriginal life) pontificating on Aboriginal religion and general culture.

https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=364276&page=2 (posts #57, 58)

So, what you need to do now--apart from apologizing to me personally--is to write "management" rescinding your complaint.
 
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elkcub

Silicon Valley, California
United States
Missed your asinine comment first time round. . ..

"Pale aborigine" is from an article Chosun provided the link to in the long-dormant "Dark Emu" thread. It refers to light-skinned people with little or no Aboriginal DNA (or lived-experience of Aboriginal life) pontificating on Aboriginal religion and general culture.

https://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=364276&page=2 (posts #57, 58)

So, what you need to do now--apart from apologizing to me personally--is to write "management" rescinding your complaint.

Well, fugl, it beggars belief that you missed my "asinine comment," but let's go along with the fiction. As context let's examine what you said in post #107, which led to my complaint (see PDF).

Para. 1. “Wisdom”, an unexpected word from your normally oh-so “scientific” lips. Was that a personal insult, or simply asinine? I'd say both.

Para 2. Sure, anything’s possible in the realm of pure speculation, even a “somewhat different cognitive integration of ‘reality’”, whatever that’s supposed to mean ... Well, "cognitive integration is a psychological term that's well embedded in the literature and easily found on the Internet. Arguably, that comment was also asinine.

Para. 3. In reference to my prior statement that the thread was "an unusual opportunity to peer outside the box and learn more about Indigenous People's thoughts and thought processes, you responded: As filtered through the “thoughts and thought processes” of Chosun and other “Pale Aborigines” you mean? Think I’ll take a pass. . .. Of course, you knew that's not what I meant, and you also knew that Chosun had not responded to your inquiry on the Dark Emu thread as to whether she identified as a "Pale Aborigine." But nonetheless, you weaponized the reference and made the assertion with obvious malice. This went beyond asinine and led me to file the complaint, which in retrospect I would do again.

What you need to do now is to reflect on your own own behavior and apologize to Chosun. I'm sure she would never ask you to do so herself, which doubtless enables you to go on saying these things.

As for myself, I sincerely apologize to the forum for having to post this response, and I sincerely hope that it doesn't damage the validity or continued interest in this unique thread.

Ed
 

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Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
Well, fugl, it beggars belief that you missed my "asinine comment," but let's go along with the fiction. As context let's examine what you said in post #107, which led to my complaint (see PDF).

Para. 1. “Wisdom”, an unexpected word from your normally oh-so “scientific” lips. Was that a personal insult, or simply asinine? I'd say both.

Para 2. Sure, anything’s possible in the realm of pure speculation, even a “somewhat different cognitive integration of ‘reality’”, whatever that’s supposed to mean ... Well, "cognitive integration is a psychological term that's well embedded in the literature and easily found on the Internet. Arguably, that comment was also asinine.

Para. 3. In reference to my prior statement that the thread was "an unusual opportunity to peer outside the box and learn more about Indigenous People's thoughts and thought processes, you responded: As filtered through the “thoughts and thought processes” of Chosun and other “Pale Aborigines” you mean? Think I’ll take a pass. . .. Of course, you knew that's not what I meant, and you also knew that Chosun had not responded to your inquiry on the Dark Emy thread as to whether she identified as a "Pale Aborigine." But nonetheless, you weaponized the reference and made the assertion with obvious malice. This went beyond asinine and led me to file the complaint, which in retrospect I would do again.

What you need to do now is to reflect on your own own behavior and apologize to Chosun. I'm sure she would never ask you to do so herself, which doubtless enables you to go on saying these things.

As for myself, I sincerely apologize to the forum for having to post this response, and I sincerely hope that it doesn't damage the validity or continued interest in this unique thread.

Ed

Thank you Ed :t:

Spot-on, on all accounts. (also in reference to Sangahyando's - "anyone can just make stuff up")

Thank you for reporting Fugl's post - I concur.

Fugl - fluffy is almost off the chain again .....
- perhaps a time out is in order (you can use the time constructively to research "Pale Aborigine" - a phrase you first introduced ! , and deliver your newfound knowledge [readily available - you can even make reference to author Bruce Pascoe's recent clearance on his Aboriginality by the Australian Federal Police if you are moved to particular humility] on the Dark Emu thread). Any apologies due will be yours to give.






Chosun :gh:
 
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Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=3895521&postcount=57
This is the post (#57) in the Dark Emu thread, where the article linked is a response from author Bruce Pascoe to aspersions cast in public by right-leaning 'journalist' (known to me for his contrarian 'shock jock' 'opinions' .... I certainly don't waste any of my precious time reading him - his articles are biased and under-researched too often for my liking) Andrew Bolt. The exact term "Pale Aborigine" is never coined. I'm sure Ed at least, will take much more away from this fascinating first hand response than that. YMMV.

Very interesting in that mainstream educated Pascoe says:
"My cheeks flushed crimson as I turned page after page of the histories, police records, genealogies, settlers diaries, explorers journals. I'd been sold a pup by the best university in the land, not just in the history classes, but education, economics, geography, and science."

Perhaps this also informs how 'explorers' Burke and Wills with all their 'superior' scientific knowledge, managed to perish in a country absolutely brimming with food ......







Chosun :gh:
 
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fugl

Well-known member
Wow, really touched a nerve I see. I neither know nor care what Chosun’s ethnicity is but whatever it is, it’s most emphatically not aboriginal Australian. In short, she’s a phony who’s let it be understood for years now that she was something she was not. I don’t know what her motive for the deception was. Perhaps she saw it as a means of adding a spurious gravitas to her New Age maunderings.

Elkclub—climate denier and 5G alarmist who sees himself as the eninence grise behind these crackpot causes and who is sensitive to the merest whisper of a slight. What else is there to say of such a man?
 
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Chosun Juan

Given to Fly
Australia - Aboriginal
Wow, really touched a nerve I see. I neither know nor care what Chosun’s ethnicity is but whatever it is, it’s most emphatically not aboriginal Australian. In short, she’s a phony who’s let it be understood for years now that she was something she was not. I don’t know what her motive for the deception was. Perhaps she saw it as a means of adding a spurious gravitas to her New Age maunderings.

Elkclub—climate denier and 5G alarmist sensitive to the merest whisper of a slight. What else is there to say of such a man?

You have got to be kidding me - racial vilification !?! .... into the doghouse you go.
 

fugl

Well-known member
You have got to be kidding me - racial vilification !?! .... into the doghouse you go.

Racial vilification? Explain to me how what I posted constitutes “vilification”, “racial” or otherwise. The jig is truly up, I’m afraid, and the sooner you acknowledge this fact and move on, the easier things will be for you. A nice preliminary gesture would be to get rid of the false colors (the “Aboriginal” flag) after your name in the heading.
 
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Andy Adcock

Well-known member
England
Wow, really touched a nerve I see. I neither know nor care what Chosun’s ethnicity is but whatever it is, it’s most emphatically not aboriginal Australian. In short, she’s a phony who’s let it be understood for years now that she was something she was not. I don’t know what her motive for the deception was. Perhaps she saw it as a means of adding a spurious gravitas to her New Age maunderings.

Elkclub—climate denier and 5G alarmist who sees himself as the eninence grise behind these crackpot causes and who is sensitive to the merest whisper of a slight. What else is there to say of such a man?

Censored
 
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opisska

Jan Ebr
Poland
Guys, I am willing to disagree with Chosun from sunrise to sunset, but I think the color of her skin is neither any of your business, nor is it a topic for a forum discussion. I am only posting here because I have previously engaged in criticism of Chosun, but I emphatically do not want to be associated with this angle.
 

Andy Adcock

Well-known member
England
Guys, I am willing to disagree with Chosun from sunrise to sunset, but I think the color of her skin is neither any of your business, nor is it a topic for a forum discussion. I am only posting here because I have previously engaged in criticism of Chosun, but I emphatically do not want to be associated with this angle.

Censored
 
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