IOC World Bird List V1.7 (1 Viewer)

[Richard Klim]

How can anyone take the Hanson book seriously?

Could someone who has seen the books tell us how those c200 races are actually described?

By identifying morphological or genetic differences?

Or just by naming populations at individual breeding areas?

Richard

 

[Microtus]

Could someone who has seen the books tell us how those c200 races are actually described?

By identifying morphological or genetic differences?

Or just by naming populations at individual breeding areas?

Richard

Can you access this link? http://www.bioone.org/doi/pdf/10.1676/1559-4491(2007)119[514:OL]2.0.CO;2

"The work is based on the study of preserved skins and skeletons of more than 1,800 geese in the collection of the Illinois Natural History Survey (INHS), as well as hundreds examined in, or borrowed from, other museums. Hanson also observed hundreds of thousands of geese in the field, in breeding areas or on migration."

 

[Richard Klim]

How can anyone take the Hanson book seriously?

Can you access this link? http://www.bioone.org/doi/pdf/10.1676/1559-4491(2007)119[514:OL]2.0.CO;2

Yes, thanks Microtus.

Oh dear. I can now understand your first statement.

And I came dangerously close to buying a copy...

Richard

 

[Microtus]

Yes, it is a doozy.

 

[colonelboris]

Still useful for me!

 

[njlarsen]

AOU has two subcommittees that are distinctly charged with messing with both the scientific and the vernacular names. In other words, even without IOC, these names are destined to change.

Niels

 

[Microtus]

Don't the AOU committees have a quota of names that must be changed every year?

 

[chiafunkito]

name

Away birding for the last month, but just noticed that the latest IOC update (V1.7) is now available at http://www.worldbirdnames.org

Richard

Any idea of the name of a two toned blue bird common to Venezuela about the size of a thrush, know locally as Azulejo?

 

[l_raty]

Azulejo

Thraupis episcopus (Blue-gray Tanager).

 

[Melanie]

Zosterops capensis is split from Zosterops pallidus as distinct species

 

[chowchilla]

Actually, to clarify my views, I take an even more extreme position than that, namely that no "official" action should be taken by anyone ever with respect to vernacular names which IMO should simply be left alone, to take their chances as other (non-technical) vocabulary does (& has always done) in the English language wherever spoken. In my view the focus of the IOC list should be on the scientific names (that is on keeping the taxonomy up-to-date) & its only function with respect to the common names (in cases where more than one has appeared in the literature) should be as a kind of concordance, listing all the major alternatives. In other words, I contend that as far as vernacular names are concerned the list should be like a modern dictionary which records usage without attempting to prescribe it.

Thank God somebody understands the evolution of the English language in all it's myriad forms. You can't make people use one name or another. There's no 'on-the-spot' fine if you use a name that's not 'official'. If there's ten different common names for a species throughout the world, then so what? So long as the scientific names are consistent, then changes should only occur when there are lumps and splits.

I was ticked off on this forum several months back for calling a Jabiru, a Jabiru. No Aussie is ever going to call it Black-necked Stork if they don't want to. It would be like me ticking a British birder off for calling a bird a Common Gull instead of a Mew Gull, or whatever it must be called this week.

Sorry, but as a former English teacher I have a real problem when the use of my native tongue is lorded over by language Nazis this way...

Rant over.:C

 

[fugl]

Thank God somebody understands the evolution of the English language in all it's myriad forms. You can't make people use one name or another. There's no 'on-the-spot' fine if you use a name that's not 'official'. If there's ten different common names for a species throughout the world, then so what? So long as the scientific names are consistent, then changes should only occur when there are lumps and splits.

I was ticked off on this forum several months back for calling a Jabiru, a Jabiru. No Aussie is ever going to call it Black-necked Stork if they don't want to. It would be like me ticking a British birder off for calling a bird a Common Gull instead of a Mew Gull, or whatever it must be called this week.

Sorry, but as a former English teacher I have a real problem when the use of my native tongue is lorded over by language Nazis this way...

Rant over.:C

Greetings, chowchilla. Nice to find an ally after all this time.

But, about your point that no Aussie will ever be browbeaten into calling a Jabiru (now there’s a bird I’d like to see in the wild sometime) a Black-necked Stork, I think you underestimate the power of “offical” names in bird books. In my experience, whenever the big hobbyist organizations agree on a name change, the authors of field guides immediately follow suit in order to seem up-to-date. After that, since nowadays most people learn animal names from books, not from folk culture as formerly, it’s just a matter of time before the old names fade out completely.

Well, keep up the good fight. We’ll lose, but so what?

 

[birdboybowley]

I agree with the principal but the only prob I have with 'Jabiru' in Oz is that the real Jabiruis a completely different bird on another continent, not just a variation on a same-species name due to geographical location

 

[Richard Klim]

Thank God somebody understands the evolution of the English language in all it's myriad forms. You can't make people use one name or another. There's no 'on-the-spot' fine if you use a name that's not 'official'. If there's ten different common names for a species throughout the world, then so what? So long as the scientific names are consistent, then changes should only occur when there are lumps and splits.

I was ticked off on this forum several months back for calling a Jabiru, a Jabiru. No Aussie is ever going to call it Black-necked Stork if they don't want to. It would be like me ticking a British birder off for calling a bird a Common Gull instead of a Mew Gull, or whatever it must be called this week.

Sorry, but as a former English teacher I have a real problem when the use of my native tongue is lorded over by language Nazis this way...

Rant over.:C

I totally agree that no one should be made to use any particular common name - on-the-spot fines should always be kept within sensible limits.

But the example you've given of a local Australian name is curious. Jabiru is reportedly a Brazilian (Tupi-Guarani) name for the Latin American endemic genus. Although Jabiru is commonly used for both Jabiru and Ephippiorhynchus in other languages (eg, Spanish, French), Australia is usually renowned for the creativity of its home-grown vernacular...

Richard

Edit: You beat me to it, birdboybowley!

 

[fugl]

See how quickly the forces of uniformity mobilize, Chowchilla? I really don’t think we have a chance.

 

[birdboybowley]

Think the Aussies should call it a 'Jabbo'......:-O
But as i said I agree with the principal - if it ain't broke, don't fix it! We're never gonna call skuas 'jaegers' or divers 'loons' or grey phal a red phal and vice versa for Americans - yet we all know what each other's talking about

 

[chowchilla]

I totally agree that no one should be made to use any particular common name - on-the-spot fines should always be kept within sensible limits.

But the example you've given of a local Australian name is curious. Jabiru is reportedly a Brazilian (Tupi-Guarani) name for the Latin American endemic genus. Although Jabiru is commonly used for both Jabiru and Ephippiorhynchus in other languages (eg, Spanish, French), Australia is usually renowned for the creativity of its home-grown vernacular...

Richard

Edit: You beat me to it, birdboybowley!

Ah but you see, Bandicoot for example is an Indian word. Kangaroo (as the legend goes) was never a local word for the animal. Antechinus is Latinised Greek.

Where words originate from to me is irrelevant. If we expunged all 'Indian' words from our language say -through an English language equivalent of 'L'institution Francaise'- then we would have to get rid of Bungalow, Verandah, Pyjamas, Jodhpurs, Curry, Chutney, Jungle, Dinghy, Catamaran, Pundit, Punter, Thug and Shampoo; and of course Bandicoot just for starters.

I'm spinning this out to absurdity of course, but the point remains: the English language has myriad local forms which use their own venaculars; that will never change; there's no Fin de Semaine for me I'm afraid! After all... should it be colour or color? Even some Aussies aren't sure about that one!

If you're going to have a world bird list you could quite easily list it by scientific name followed in brackets by the better known common names, however many there are.

Second rant over (bit calmer now...)

 

[Richard Klim]

Ah but you see, Bandicoot for example is an Indian word. Kangaroo (as the legend goes) was never a local word for the animal. Antechinus is Latinised Greek.

Where words originate from to me is irrelevant. If we expunged all 'Indian' words from our language say -through an English language equivalent of 'L'institution Francaise'- then we would have to get rid of Bungalow, Verandah, Pyjamas, Jodhpurs, Curry, Chutney, Jungle, Dinghy, Catamaran, Pundit, Punter, Thug and Shampoo; and of course Bandicoot just for starters.

I'm spinning this out to absurdity of course, but the point remains: the English language has myriad local forms which use their own venaculars; that will never change; there's no Fin de Semaine for me I'm afraid! After all... should it be colour or color? Even some Aussies aren't sure about that one!

Fair enough - I was just being mischievous. I'm not going to start using Bearded Vulture instead of Lammergeier.

If you're going to have a world bird list you could quite easily list it by scientific name followed in brackets by the better known common names, however many there are.

Trouble is, as commented before, the scientific names are arguably less stable than the common names, with much conflict between sources. This forum (or TiF) provides a good illustration of the continuing flood of proposals for family and generic reassignments, grammatical and priority corrections etc - variously accepted by some authorities and rejected (or ignored) by others.

So for consistency, the better known alternative scientific names would also need to be listed - but which would take priority as the primary key for the list? Presumably, as with IOC's initiative on English names, you'd object to the creation of a single body responsible for recommending the 'official' scientific name of every species, overriding local usage and the decisions of regional taxonomic committees. :eek!:

Richard

 

[chowchilla]

Fair enough - I was just being mischievous. I'm not going to start using Bearded Vulture instead of Lammergeier.


Trouble is, as commented before, the scientific names are arguably less stable than the common names, with much conflict between sources. This forum (or TiF) provides a good illustration of the continuing flood of proposals for family and generic reassignments, grammatical and priority corrections etc - variously accepted by some authorities and rejected (or ignored) by others.

So for consistency, the better known alternative scientific names would also need to be listed - but which would take priority as the primary key for the list? Presumably, as with IOC's initiative on English names, you'd object to the creation of a single body responsible for recommending the 'official' scientific name of every species, overriding local usage and the decisions of regional taxonomic committees. :eek!:

Richard

Actually I reckon a single officiating body on scientific names is a perfectly worthy notion. It'll put a few noses out of joint at the IOC, Clements etc though (hopefully...).

When folks in the field are chatting about birds, they use the common names (unless they're being pretentious... ); even when describing subspecies and races that don't have common names, here in Aus at least they'll talk about the 'Western Form', the 'Island Form', the 'Sandstone Form, the 'Grey Form' etc. Generally if you have any knowledge of the local birds, you'll know what folks are talking about whatever name they use (within reason).

I'm willing to bet that local committees will be more willing to accept consensus on the scientific names if they don't feel that they are not being listened to regarding the naming process and latest research. Of course it gets tricky when there is a lack of consensus on what constitutes a species say, or what genus a bird actually belongs to; you'll never get perfect harmony in these matters. Where that's the case, then yes if need be, list the alternate scientific names too. Complicated? Certainly. Democratic? You bet!

Fly-Robin.... Flyeater... (urgh!)

 

[Richard Klim]

Actually I reckon a single officiating body on scientific names is a perfectly worthy notion. It'll put a few noses out of joint at the IOC, Clements etc though (hopefully...).

Perhaps it should have a committee of c30 members comprising specialists for every major geographic region.

Richard