Irish Dipper( Cinclus cinclus hibernicus) (1 Viewer)

[keps]

Here is a recent photo which I took of a Dipper on the Dodder River in Dublin, Ireland


https://www.flickr.com/photos/127669355@N03/, on Flickr

I'm reading that the distinction between the Irish sub-species and its Eurasian counterpart is a brown tinge or band at the base of its white breast?

Do you think this pic illustrates that- or what?

 

[Andy Adcock]

Here is a recent photo which I took of a Dipper on the Dodder River in Dublin, Ireland


https://www.flickr.com/photos/127669355@N03/, on Flickr

I'm reading that the distinction between the Irish sub-species and its Eurasian counterpart is a brown tinge or band at the base of its white breast?

Do you think this pic illustrates that- or what?

Yes, look at the bright orange bit under the white bib though this varies across several races with the one in England being the most extensive and some continental birds with none at all. Europan birds occur sometimes in the UK as vagrants, are referred to as Black-bellied.

 

[Sangahyando]

Yes, look at the bright orange bit under the white bib though this varies across several races with the one in England being the most extensive and some continental birds with none at all. Europan birds occur sometimes in the UK as vagrants, are referred to as Black-bellied.

It's worth noting that the orangey band is also well pronounced in Central European birds, at least those from Southern Germany. The vagrant "black-bellied" ones are probably mostly from Scandinavia, as they tend to winter further south.

 

[keps]

Yes, look at the bright orange bit under the white bib though this varies across several races with the one in England being the most extensive and some continental birds with none at all. Europan birds occur sometimes in the UK as vagrants, are referred to as Black-bellied.

Thanks indeed for your reply. If I am interpreting it correctly - the name Cinclus Cinclus Hibernicus might not be totally accurate as
birds with the 'orange/brown' bit under its white bib are not confined to Ireland but are widespread in England and possibly parts of mainland Europe?

 

[Nutcracker]

Thanks indeed for your reply. If I am interpreting it correctly - the name Cinclus Cinclus Hibernicus might not be totally accurate as
birds with the 'orange/brown' bit under its white bib are not confined to Ireland but are widespread in England and possibly parts of mainland Europe?

From the IOC list, you get C. c. hibernicus in Ireland and western Scotland, and C. c. gularis in eastern Scotland and the rest of Britain. I'm not sure what the difference between them is, yours looks just the same as the gularis ones I see here in Northumbs (pic below).

A quick PS - genus names start with a capital, but the species and subspecies names are invariably lower case: Cinclus cinclus hibernicus

 

[keps]

From the IOC list, you get C. c. hibernicus in Ireland and western Scotland, and C. c. gularis in eastern Scotland and the rest of Britain. I'm not sure what the difference between them is, yours looks just the same as the gularis ones I see here in Northumbs (pic below).

A quick PS - genus names start with a capital, but the species and subspecies names are invariably lower case: Cinclus cinclus hibernicus

Thanks- thread title corrected to show correct lower case first letter!

Anyway - one last post/photo of the Dipper from today on the Dodder( Dublin) - brown tinge below white breast is obvious

Dipper https://www.flickr.com/photos/127669355@N03/, on Flickr

 

[mummymonkey]

Nice pictures. Look the same as the dippers here in E. Scotland too.

 

[Nutcracker]

Just checked in the new Shirihai & Svensson Handbook of Western Palearctic Birds; they lump hibernicus into gularis, with the comment

Hartert (1910) separated birds of Ireland and W Scotland ('hibernicus') on account of being darker above, but total overlap when series compared, and very far from meeting 75% rule.

I'd not be surprised if the next IOC review follows suit, though I've not seen any mention of it in their forthcoming updates yet.

 

[Sangahyando]

Thanks indeed for your reply. If I am interpreting it correctly - the name Cinclus Cinclus Hibernicus might not be totally accurate as
birds with the 'orange/brown' bit under its white bib are not confined to Ireland but are widespread in England and possibly parts of mainland Europe?

Not just possibly, quite defintely. It's just that the mainland birds with orange-brown band belong to the ssp. aquaticus instead of gularis or hibernicus.
See for instance the pictures in the Internet Bird Collection - there are some from Germany that illustrate my point:

Planned Outage for Some Cornell Lab Services

Several Cornell Lab of Ornithology services will be unavailable beginning March 19 through 6:00 a.m. U.S. Eastern time on March 21. This is a one-time disruption while we migrate more than 1.6 billion eBird observations and additional project data to new servers. After the move, our websites will ha

search.macaulaylibrary.org

The BF Opus page also describes the various subspecies:

White-throated Dipper - BirdForum Opus

www.birdforum.net

 

[keps]

Not just possibly, quite defintely. It's just that the mainland birds with orange-brown band belong to the ssp. aquaticus instead of gularis or hibernicus.
See for instance the pictures in the Internet Bird Collection - there are some from Germany that illustrate my point:

Planned Outage for Some Cornell Lab Services

Several Cornell Lab of Ornithology services will be unavailable beginning March 19 through 6:00 a.m. U.S. Eastern time on March 21. This is a one-time disruption while we migrate more than 1.6 billion eBird observations and additional project data to new servers. After the move, our websites will ha

search.macaulaylibrary.org

The BF Opus page also describes the various subspecies:

White-throated Dipper - BirdForum Opus

www.birdforum.net

Is that to basically say that there is one overall European 'Cinclus cinclus' and that the sub-species( say gularis and hibernicus) do not differ to any significant extent?

 

[keps]

Thanks to everyone for the generous help during a difficult year- let's hope 2021is better!


One last photo from today of the Dipper( my favorite bird) emerging from the Dodder River( Dublin) after an underwater foraging swim!

by https://www.flickr.com/photos/127669355@N03/, on Flickr

 

[Nutcracker]

Nice pic!

Yes, there's not a lot of differences between the various Dipper subspecies. The most obvious is that Scandinavian birds, and also those in Spain and SW France, don't have that orange-brown tone on the belly, they are the same blackish-brown there as on their backs.

 

[pianoman]

Great pictures Keps. The way I understood it is, hibernicus is supposed to have a narrower chestnut margin below the white breast patch compared with gularis, somewhere between the continental race and the British one. But looking at these well-lit photos it does seem as though there is not a lot of difference.