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Is the future of birding electric? (1 Viewer)

sillyak

Well-known member
Has anyone had one in real cold? Not UK cold. It was -44° here two weeks ago and regularly gets to -30 in the winter. Wonder how they work at that temp.
 

Andy Adcock

Well-known member
England
Has anyone had one in real cold? Not UK cold. It was -44° here two weeks ago and regularly gets to -30 in the winter. Wonder how they work at that temp.
A very valid question given the poor performance of all other batteries in such conditions.

My own question now, (and I know nothing about even basic machanics) can an alternator type arrangement be had in an all electric car?
 

opisska

Jan Ebr
Poland
Electric cars are commonly equipped with regeneration - you create electricity from movement and so recharge your battery by breaking - that's the main reason why you save so much on brake maintenance, because the mechanical brakes get used only rarely. But there is not a normal alternator, there is no point in making electricity from movement that was created by electricity in the first place, what would be the benefit?
 

sillyak

Well-known member
A very valid question given the poor performance of all other batteries in such conditions.

My own question now, (and I know nothing about even basic machanics) can an alternator type arrangement be had in an all electric car?

Thanks for the insult, but it was a legitimate question. Obviously batteries do not work well in that temperature, but I have been told some EVs have a thermal management system for the battery in such temps. It would obviously affect range seriously, but wondering if anyone had real world experience.
 

Mike C

Emeritus President at Burnage Rugby Club
On the subject of sound.
I notice that a neighbour's Renault Zoe makes a pleasant humming noise as it drives up and down our street. Certainly loud enough to trigger the old brain and make you look around.
My partner has a Nissan Leaf which is almost silent and has caused some dirty looks from pedestrians in car parks as it creeps along in "stealth mode".

The lack charging points at e.g. RSPB reserves and National Trust properties will probably limit our visits to those places (once we’re allowed to travel the ones outside our immediate area) in the Leaf.
 

ClarkWGriswold

Carpe Carpum
Staff member
Supporter
Wales
Thanks for the insult, but it was a legitimate question. Obviously batteries do not work well in that temperature, but I have been told some EVs have a thermal management system for the battery in such temps. It would obviously affect range seriously, but wondering if anyone had real world experience.
Hi Sillyak. I didn’t see it as an insult rather than agreeing with you.

I was going to respond but in the UK we just don’t get those sorts of temperatures. Autocar are running an electric Corsa and it’s range is greatly affected even by temperatures nothing like as low as you mentioned.

I remember seeing a 1st generation Leaf in Nethybridge. Now it can get very cold up there. I remember thinking it’s range must be hopeless.

Rich
 

Andy Adcock

Well-known member
England
Thanks for the insult, but it was a legitimate question. Obviously batteries do not work well in that temperature, but I have been told some EVs have a thermal management system for the battery in such temps. It would obviously affect range seriously, but wondering if anyone had real world experience.
What insult?

I said that it's a 'very valid question', where is the insult?
 

Andy Adcock

Well-known member
England
On the subject of sound.
I notice that a neighbour's Renault Zoe makes a pleasant humming noise as it drives up and down our street. Certainly loud enough to trigger the old brain and make you look around.
My partner has a Nissan Leaf which is almost silent and has caused some dirty looks from pedestrians in car parks as it creeps along in "stealth mode".

The lack charging points at e.g. RSPB reserves and National Trust properties will probably limit our visits to those places (once we’re allowed to travel the ones outside our immediate area) in the Leaf.
I have that Mike, it's called tinnitus :LOL:
 

ClarkWGriswold

Carpe Carpum
Staff member
Supporter
Wales
On the subject of sound.
I notice that a neighbour's Renault Zoe makes a pleasant humming noise as it drives up and down our street. Certainly loud enough to trigger the old brain and make you look around.
My partner has a Nissan Leaf which is almost silent and has caused some dirty looks from pedestrians in car parks as it creeps along in "stealth mode".

The lack charging points at e.g. RSPB reserves and National Trust properties will probably limit our visits to those places (once we’re allowed to travel the ones outside our immediate area) in the Leaf.
My neighbour has an X5 phev Mike. Sounds like John the Milk’s milk float from the 70’s :D
 

kb57

Well-known member
Europe
For the last couple of years it has been compulsory in EU and UK for EVs and hybrids to generate a noise when travelling at low speeds, so slightly older cars will be silent. It takes all the fun out of creeping up behind people in car parks, but it's better than having to use a guy walking in front with a red flag. I don't really notice mine much, but then like Andy I also suffer from tinnitus!
WRT low temperatures, you see photos of camouflaged pre-production EVs and PHEVs being tested in northern Sweden, so they are designed to function in those temperatures, and I believe at least some have a battery warming system - which as has been pointed out will deplete the battery. As I said earlier, with the Kona my economy dropped from 4.5mi/kWh in autumn at around 18C to 3.9mi/kWh at -3C, so there is a difference. Optimum ambient temperature for an EV is I believe around 20C.
A couple of other issues mentioned upthread:
  • I don't find motorway economy drops off a cliff, provided you stick to the legal limit (this isn't true of PHEVs, where you need to drive slowly to stay in EV mode) - obviously the laws of physics take over with ICEs at high speed too, thrash them and you burn fuel;
  • the Kona drives more like a manual geared car than any hybrid or auto diesel I've driven, due to the flappy paddles controlling brake regeneration levels - you can increase the regeneration as you approach a bend for more control then accelerate around the bend just like a 'normal' car. Jan is correct about brake maintenance too, I drove a hybrid DS5 for many miles before needing new pads as that had quite a high level of regeneration.
 

edenwatcher

Well-known member
No battery works well in extreme cold (and that includes Pb-acid used in petrol or diesel cars). In Scandinavia they routinely heat lead-acid batteries to ensure they start.

Rob
 

JWN Andrewes

Poor Judge of Pasta.
Thank you kb57, for starting this thread. It's been an interesting read.

Now I'm actually at a keyboard, rather than on my phone, I think its time to throw in a few of my thoughts.

With regard to charging at home, inductive charging via cables under the tarmac could be an eventual solution for those in Farnboro John's situation. If all parking spaces along the road act as wireless charging points finding a plug no longer becomes an issue. It'll require some pretty major short to medium term disruption & investment, but it's probably a given that the switch to EVs will generate some fairly big infrastructure instalment.

As for extending range, the use of photovoltaic paint has been touted as an interesting development, I guess it could be particularly useful in some of those tropical countries where perhaps charge points will be fewer and further between.

I'd be interested to hear about other people's thoughts on how the second hand market in EVs might develop (having never bought a new car in my life). With fewer moving parts, pistons, cam-belts and what not, will EVs last longer than ICEs? Will people hang on to them longer? Will they depreciate more slowly? Will it make the second hand market more competitive? Guess we'll find out.
 

opisska

Jan Ebr
Poland
The entire footprint of my car is about 5 square meters, that's 5 kW of sunlight at absolutely perfect conditions, no way you are getting more than a kW from that surface any time soon - so an entire day of charging may give you a few dozen kilometers of range, not exactly a solution. That's why you don't see solar powered vehicles in general, it's just weak - solar is really great if you have a lot of area to waste on it, or for low-power applications, so the exact opposite of cars in both aspects.

Resale market will completely depend on the experience with batteries after a long use, which we so far do not have - the cost of a used EV will be directly proportional to how well the batteries still work - the other parts will, indeed, be quite cheap eventually once their start being mass-produced. The current ICV, especially in Europe, is an absolute marvel of technology in order to meet emission qoutas, while an EV, outside of batteries, is a pretty simple go cart.
 

dantheman

Bah humbug
I've never spent more than £500 on a car in my life (and that was in 1987, mostly from saved up paper round money!)

Imagine that there would be issues with second hand electric cars being expensive - a petrol engine either works or doesn't (some power fade off with time/things wearing out), but batteries would have to be working at a reasonable rate still, need replacing, or possibly rejuvenating, depending on the type/technology at the time?
 
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Farnboro John

Well-known member
Thank you kb57, for starting this thread. It's been an interesting read.

Now I'm actually at a keyboard, rather than on my phone, I think its time to throw in a few of my thoughts.

With regard to charging at home, inductive charging via cables under the tarmac could be an eventual solution for those in Farnboro John's situation. If all parking spaces along the road act as wireless charging points finding a plug no longer becomes an issue. It'll require some pretty major short to medium term disruption & investment, but it's probably a given that the switch to EVs will generate some fairly big infrastructure instalment.
There are no allotted parking spaces, and with the mixture of white vans and cars (not to mention multi-driver occupancy houses) parking is at a premium and competitive: a stretch of road that today has three or four cars may tomorrow have two vans. Today for instance my car is on the grass for lack of anywhere else to put it. The environment where I live (and I include the more chav or outright criminal of my neighbours in "environment") is not susceptible to the sort of disciplined behavioural adaptation to permit such a solution.

I think installing the infrastructure should probably be both quick and survivable: recent experience with renewal of gas mains gives me confidence in this at least.

How well do charging points of any kind work when the road is heavily covered in puddles?

John
 

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