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Ivory-Billed Woodpecker continued (1 Viewer)

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Deb Burhinus

Used to be well known! ๐Ÿ˜Ž
Europe
Great Auk have learnt a difficult Ninja technique of hiding under stones at the minimum disturbance. That's where they spend winter too. It's basic Science really, the mortality was so massive that only the very best survived (bottleneck process), paving the way to this extremely well adapted new Great Auk. Don't be lazy and go there and check it by yourself, instead of sitting there on your comfortable couch.
Great Auks are extinct and suggesting they have ninja abilities makes no sense to me really. While the bottleneck process of evolutionary adaptation is recognised as a legitimate bio-adaptive mechanism, I think applying it to an obviously extinct bird without peer-reviewed evidence as you are doing here, is scientifically dubious to be honest. I have spent time birding on Orkney and, while I am an amatuer when it comes to Palaeontology, I didnโ€™t find any credible fossil evidence of prior habitation or that extanct populations of GA remained even more recently. It is not a comparable situation to the IBOW where the habitat is much more dense and unexplored and people have found an actual feather and made videos and stuff.

I thought the debate went quite well really after a rocky start.

Good luck to the OP and thank you for sharing some of your thought provoking ideas about how you will track down your quarry.
 

Deb Burhinus

Used to be well known! ๐Ÿ˜Ž
Europe
Can anyone summarise the bit about a feather being found please?
From wiki (which is probably as reliable as any other source of info here and quicker than trawling back through all the IBOW threads to find references!)

.โ€œN. Agey and G. M. Heinzmann reported observing one or two ivory-billed woodpeckers in Highlands County, Florida, on 11 occasions from 1967 to 1969.[81] A tree the birds had been observed roosting in was damaged during a storm, and they were able to obtain a feather from the roost, which was identified as an inner secondary feather of an ivory-billed woodpecker by A. Wetmore. The feather is stored at the Florida Museum of Natural History.[47] The feather was described as "fresh, not worn", but as it could not be conclusively dated, it has not been universally accepted as proof ivory-billed woodpeckers persisted to this date.[28]โ€œ

 

Hauksen

Forum member
Hi,

Provide data for these factoids then, otherwise these are merely beliefs.

Not exactly data, but here's a significant claim at least:


(Not that I think it has much credibility.)

Regards,

Henning
 

1TruthSeeker

Well-known member
See post 64 sbove

(unless you had something else in mind? I donโ€™t think any other feathers were found)
At least three feathers were found; two downy feathers perhaps from young bird(s); and a secondary that was professionally/formally IDed as fresh and as Ivory-billed. The nest was collected and measured and matched known IB measurements and not Pileated. Height and diameter measurement of cavities is critical, finding its stasis via selection pressures.

President of the ABA accepted these sightings as fact and wrote in Lane's Guide Series (Florida) about them. The area has been IDed but much private land in area.

Seems like again IB sightings WITH EVIDENCE push the IB closer to the present by decades.
 

Larry Sweetland

Formerly 'Larry Wheatland'
At least three feathers were found; two downy feathers perhaps from young bird(s); and a secondary that was professionally/formally IDed as fresh and as Ivory-billed. The nest was collected and measured and matched known IB measurements and not Pileated. Height and diameter measurement of cavities is critical, finding its stasis via selection pressures.

President of the ABA accepted these sightings as fact and wrote in Lane's Guide Series (Florida) about them. The area has been IDed but much private land in area.

Seems like again IB sightings WITH EVIDENCE push the IB closer to the present by decades.
But the fact that no-one's even managed to find a feather in more than 50 years isn't looking that good is it?
 

Farnboro John

Well-known member
At least three feathers were found; two downy feathers perhaps from young bird(s); and a secondary that was professionally/formally IDed as fresh and as Ivory-billed. The nest was collected and measured and matched known IB measurements and not Pileated. Height and diameter measurement of cavities is critical, finding its stasis via selection pressures.

President of the ABA accepted these sightings as fact and wrote in Lane's Guide Series (Florida) about them. The area has been IDed but much private land in area.

Seems like again IB sightings WITH EVIDENCE push the IB closer to the present by decades.
So the downy feathers weren't even identified to species? Not evidence then.

John
 

Farnboro John

Well-known member
Would that even be possible without DNA, which of course, wasn't available then?
No - but if they retained them.....

It sounds as if the best thing anyone could think to do with (supposedly) the last known nest of an IBWO was to fell the tree and saw out the section with it in, as well. Genius.

John
 

1TruthSeeker

Well-known member
No - but if they retained them.....

It sounds as if the best thing anyone could think to do with (supposedly) the last known nest of an IBWO was to fell the tree and saw out the section with it in, as well. Genius.

John
The subject tree had fallen; the cavity was ~ 40 feet up (average for IB) . Pileateds tend to roost higher than 40 ft with reason. Roost supposedly is in safe keeping in FL but since there are likely live birds around...not a huge draw for those who can get off their keyboards.
But the fact that no-one's even managed to find a feather in more than 50 years isn't looking that good is it?

You seem to have missed several papers, SOM, suggestive videos and many sets of field notes. Never found a feather of Long-tailed Manakin but I have convinced myself that the feathers do exist along with the species.
 

Farnboro John

Well-known member
The subject tree had fallen; the cavity was ~ 40 feet up (average for IB) . Pileateds tend to roost higher than 40 ft with reason. Roost supposedly is in safe keeping in FL but since there are likely live birds around...not a huge draw for those who can get off their keyboards.


You seem to have missed several papers, SOM, suggestive videos and many sets of field notes. Never found a feather of Long-tailed Manakin but I have convinced myself that the feathers do exist along with the species.
So between the nest being used (or given the uncertainty surrounding the downy feathers, we should limit ourselves to saying the cavity last being used as a roost) and the feather being found, the tree had decayed sufficiently to fall over. What is the estimate of the time between the two events? This evidence is beginning to recede time-wise.....

John
 

1TruthSeeker

Well-known member
So between the nest being used (or given the uncertainty surrounding the downy feathers, we should limit ourselves to saying the cavity last being used as a roost) and the feather being found, the tree had decayed sufficiently to fall over. What is the estimate of the time between the two events? This evidence is beginning to recede time-wise.....

John
The tree snapped near the roost location; the authors were on a formal Bald Eagle survey, then in trouble due to DDT. They visited the private property location per route logistics many times and found the downed tree, feather section in short order. It was already said the feather was determined to be fresh by those capable.

Please get the paper.
 
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Farnboro John

Well-known member
My goodness.....................lost your library card?
Funny how many truth seekers in this particular arena don't like the facts being analysed to even the lightest extent, and abandon discussion for indignation at the drop of a hat. Debate is not about people agreeing with you, its about you convincing them with incontrovertible evidence.

So what we have is one feather of indeterminate age that may actually originate from the period of the twentieth century when we know IBWO still existed, from an area where we know IBWO still existed at the time. Doesn't advance the cause a whole lot.

Which still means no contemporary evidence of a large and highly visible, highly vocal, highly distinctive bird using easily recognisable, unconcealable nest sites that are re-used year-on-year despite all the equipment available to searchers. Basically because its not there.

John
 

Larry Sweetland

Formerly 'Larry Wheatland'
The subject tree had fallen; the cavity was ~ 40 feet up (average for IB) . Pileateds tend to roost higher than 40 ft with reason. Roost supposedly is in safe keeping in FL but since there are likely live birds around...not a huge draw for those who can get off their keyboards.


You seem to have missed several papers, SOM, suggestive videos and many sets of field notes. Never found a feather of Long-tailed Manakin but I have convinced myself that the feathers do exist along with the species.
And you seem to have missed a basic understanding of how easy it can be to misidentify birds in the field.
 
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1TruthSeeker

Well-known member
And you seem to have missed a basic understanding of how easy it can be to misidentify birds in the field.
Funny how many truth seekers in this particular arena don't like the facts being analysed to even the lightest extent, and abandon discussion for indignation at the drop of a hat. Debate is not about people agreeing with you, its about you convincing them with incontrovertible evidence.

So what we have is one feather of indeterminate age that may actually originate from the period of the twentieth century when we know IBWO still existed, from an area where we know IBWO still existed at the time. Doesn't advance the cause a whole lot.

Which still means no contemporary evidence of a large and highly visible, highly vocal, highly distinctive bird using easily recognisable, unconcealable nest sites that are re-used year-on-year despite all the equipment available to searchers. Basically because its not there.

John
LS I would never underestimate certain persons' inability to correctly ID a bird; unfortunately we were discussing a feather. As a metaphor for you not realizing the grammatical subject in the few sentences uttered so far, I must opine that you may even be in the group that would mis-ID a feather. lol

To the other.... Not here to debate, seek affirmation or certainly learn anything new from the paleo-island bound. Only here to see the expected: squirming, shivering and avoidance that the extinction date you thought was absolutely near 1944 was actually much later and closer to contemporary stacks of IB evidence.

Some obviously do not even know the basics on the IB; yet flatter themselves on the value and merit of their opinion. The recent IB record was accepted by the pertinent RBCs and USFWS. R U on these committees?

If not, there might be some work needed on analyses of the my child's colouring books.............
 

Farnboro John

Well-known member
LS I would never underestimate certain persons' inability to correctly ID a bird; unfortunately we were discussing a feather. As a metaphor for you not realizing the grammatical subject in the few sentences uttered so far, I must opine that you may even be in the group that would mis-ID a feather. lol

To the other.... Not here to debate, seek affirmation or certainly learn anything new from the paleo-island bound. Only here to see the expected: squirming, shivering and avoidance that the extinction date you thought was absolutely near 1944 was actually much later and closer to contemporary stacks of IB evidence.

Some obviously do not even know the basics on the IB; yet flatter themselves on the value and merit of their opinion. The recent IB record was accepted by the pertinent RBCs and USFWS. R U on these committees?

If not, there might be some work needed on analyses of the my child's colouring books.............
Show.

John
 

Larry Sweetland

Formerly 'Larry Wheatland'
LS I would never underestimate certain persons' inability to correctly ID a bird; unfortunately we were discussing a feather. As a metaphor for you not realizing the grammatical subject in the few sentences uttered so far, I must opine that you may even be in the group that would mis-ID a feather. lol
It wasn't the identification of the feather that I was referring to. I was referring to your comment about numerous other recent reports and 'evidence' that you remarked that I must have missed. I have yet to read an observation account, or see an image, that has convinced me that it had to be an IBWO. It's as simple as that.

And you can opine what you like about my ID skills. I'm sure I'm capable of misidentifying Campephilus and Dryocopus species in the field given a less than clear view (everyone is). Having seen plenty of species of both genera in the field, I'm very aware of what they can look like given a brief or distant view. And aware of how utterly bonkers the notion of a Campephilus species persisting in the USA for so long without someone getting a clear image of it, is..
 
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