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Ivory-billed Woodpecker (formerly updates) (2 Viewers)

olivacea said:
To claim a wing beat rate for a species based on 4-8 seconds of video, and to base a specific identification on it is absurd. Just type "wing beat rate" into Google. You will eventually find a very nice graph of measured wing beat rates of various volant animals.

Nothings wrong with it in principle, if you compare cruising flight data to cruising flight data ranges and flushing flight data to flushing flight data ranges. Four to 8 seconds is a decent sample size. Thats going to be something around 20-60 cycles (flaps). To increase your confidence that this is a sufficient sample size, you could partition the flight into smaller fragments and see how consistent the flap rates are over the various fragments.

But due to the many minor variables present, you do need a nice margin of safety, and the data Sibley cited (on PIWO level cruising flight in Montana) suggests that that margin probably wont be there in this case.
 

Curtis Croulet

Well-known member
Steve said:
Curtis thanks for the report, Can I ask you in all sincerity if either unitt's introduction or gallaghers talk made any difference to your opinion on its existance?

No, although my own confidence in Gallagher and Harrison's sighting is strengthened.

One other item of interest (to me): the SDNHM has an Ivory-bill specimen, a study skin, and they had it in a case outside the lecture hall. I looked at the tag, and the bird was collected somewhere in Louisiana in 1909. Years ago the SDNHM also had a nicely-mounted pair of Passenger Pigeons on public display, and I've often wondered if they still even have them. A listing I found somewhere on-line of known specimens didn't list any at SDNHM. I have not toured the museum in many years (the section where the lecture was held is totally new), which is ironic, since both I and my wife once worked there, and that's where we met in 1964.

Edited to add:

I made a recording of Gallagher's talk with a tiny pocket recorder, and I've been reviewing that and my notes, recalling some minor details.

Gallagher said there is another video, this one taken by Bobby Harrison. It shows an "Ivory-bill" flying back and forth around one of Bobby's decoys, and it shows "some interesting things," but otherwise it's no more convincing than the Luneau video.

He also talked about the suggestion that the "kents" were made by Blue Jays. He said spectral analysis supports the idea that they are made by Ivory-bills, but he also suggested that those Blue Jays that make "kents" must have learned them somewhere, possibly from Ivory-bills. I was tempted to ask how that would explain "kents" from Blue Jays in New Jersey (available on Cornell's website). Gallagher talked about a project at Cornell several years ago where somebody was breeding Cooper's Hawks. The Blue Jays picked up the sounds of juvenile Cooper's, but the Blue Jays' imitations disappeared after the breeding project was terminated.

There have been some additional recordings of "kents" during the current season.

Gallagher talked quite a bit about the flight of Pileateds vs Ivory-bills. They've taken something like 60+ videos of Pileateds taking off and flying, and they've watched a lot of Pileateds in the Big Woods, and the "Ivory-bills" they've seen fly nothing like Pileateds.

In response to a question, Gallagher made the interesting statement that some people think that Tanner's population in the Singer Tract was actually an aberration, that the birds were there mainly because they had been displaced from more desireable habitat elsewhere -- areas with pines, in particular. Apparently the Imperial Woodpecker inhabits (or once inhabited) pine forests.
 
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DaveL

Well-known member
Curtis Croulet said:
No, although my own confidence in Gallagher and Harrison's sighting is strengthened.

One other item of interest (to me): the SDNHM has an Ivory-bill specimen, a study skin, and they had it in a case outside the lecture hall. I looked at the tag, and the bird was collected somewhere in Louisiana in 1909. Years ago the SDNHM also had a nicely-mounted pair of Passenger Pigeons on public display, and I've often wondered if they still even have them. A listing I found somewhere on-line of known specimens didn't list any at SDNHM. I have not toured the museum in many years (the section where the lecture was held is totally new), which is ironic, since both I and my wife once worked there, and that's where we met in 1964.

I'm pretty sure the specimen that you saw outside Gallagher's lecture doesn't belong to SDNHM but is one that he takes on "tour", perhaps from cornell, to display at all of his talks.
 

Curtis Croulet

Well-known member
Gallagher referred to the Imperial as being IBWO's closest relative.

Tanner talks extensively about IBWO habitat, and he seemed to think they were more common in areas bordering swamps rather than in swamps. Reading that, I was wondering about the current search. Maybe swamps are where the birds are, but it's possibly not where they'd prefer to be.
 

cyberthrush

Well-known member
Curtis Croulet said:
Gallagher referred to the Imperial as being IBWO's closest relative.
Tanner talks extensively about IBWO habitat, and he seemed to think they were more common in areas bordering swamps rather than in swamps. Reading that, I was wondering about the current search. Maybe swamps are where the birds are, but it's possibly not where they'd prefer to be.

yes, the Cuban Ivory-bill always hung out in upland pines as did the Imperial, and IBWO expert Les Short hypothesized years ago that pine was the most 'natural' habitat for IBWO before settlers in America took out all the virgin pine and forced the species into more bottomland hardwood habitat (and direct competition with Pileateds).
 

Curtis Croulet

Well-known member
DaveL said:
I'm pretty sure the specimen that you saw outside Gallagher's lecture doesn't belong to SDNHM but is one that he takes on "tour", perhaps from cornell, to display at all of his talks.

No. SDNHM acquired it in the 1960s.
 

Andigena

Well-known member
cyberthrush said:
yes, the Cuban Ivory-bill always hung out in upland pines as did the Imperial, and IBWO expert Les Short hypothesized years ago that pine was the most 'natural' habitat for IBWO before settlers in America took out all the virgin pine and forced the species into more bottomland hardwood habitat (and direct competition with Pileateds).

Interesting that Gallagher would also bring up this idea of IBWO once preferring pine forest in the SE USA, because in the frontpiece of his book, he quotes Audubon on the IBWO's habitat, "favorite resort of the IBWO...deep morasses, overshadowed by dark cypresses....."

In Florida and Cuba it was well-known to use pine forests...even while roosting in cypress (AA Allen). This bird apparently is more flexible, more plastic in its habits, and broad in habitat preferences than we typically understand of a "habitat specialist species....." Although Tanner noted tree species preferences for IBWO feeding, what he really thought was most important was 1) density of dead trees; 2) "wilderness"--areas far from human interference. He uses that word alot.
 

Jesse Gilsdorf

Well-known member
Imperials do prefer pine habitat, and apparently upland pine at that up in the Sierra Madres. I do not remember the height they occupied in the mountains, but it was up there. I have it in my notes.

As for swamps being in direct competition with pileateds I would note that pileateds are not limited to swamp areas.
 

jurek

Well-known member
Are "kent" calls on recording associated with calls undoubtedly of blue jays?

Are they associated with double knocks?

Why there is no published photograph of partially albino pileated woodpecker? Why didn't researchers document aberrant pileateds in Arkansas study area?
 

Curtis Croulet

Well-known member
jurek said:
Are "kent" calls on recording associated with calls undoubtedly of blue jays?

Are they associated with double knocks?

Why there is no published photograph of partially albino pileated woodpecker? Why didn't researchers document aberrant pileateds in Arkansas study area?

As Martin has pointed out, Cornell shows an abnormal Pileated on their website. They've spent a lot of time looking at Pileateds.

AFAIK, there are no recordings of double-knocks and "kents" of any kind at the same time, and, AFAIK, there are no recordings of Ivory-bill "kents" and Blue-Jay "kents" at the same time. Gallagher said there's "no such thing as an audio 'smoking gun.'" Maybe not, but a recording of Ivory-bill "kents" and Blue Jay "kents" at the same time would come pretty close! If they had such recordings already, they probably would have them on the website now, since their value for defusing skepticism is obvious. Remember, though, the current search season isn't over.

The recorded kents and double-knocks are concentrated in areas where Ivory-bills have been seen. But the autonomous recording units are spread over a much larger area, not just in places where they saw the birds.

Edited to add: It's important to realize that there are thousands of hours of recordings. The recorders operate for a couple of hours in the morning and a couple of hours in the late afternoon, when the birds are deemed most likely to be calling. They use computers to isolate promising sounds, but it still takes a lot of time. It could be months before we know everything the ARUs have picked up this season.
 
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Andigena

Well-known member
[The recorded kents and double-knocks are concentrated in areas where Ivory-bills have been seen. But the autonomous recording units are spread over a much larger area, not just in places where they saw the birds.

Curtis; Thanks for a good summary of Gallagher's talk. What did he say (you mentioned a map) are the area's (in general) where observations/calls are concentrated, outside the Hwy. 17 bridge over Bayou de View?
 

oriole83

Member
Curtis Croulet said:
As Martin has pointed out, Cornell shows an abnormal Pileated on their website. They've spent a lot of time looking at Pileateds.

AFAIK, there are no recordings of double-knocks and "kents" of any kind at the same time, and, AFAIK, there are no recordings of Ivory-bill "kents" and Blue-Jay "kents" at the same time. Gallagher said there's "no such thing as an audio 'smoking gun.'" Maybe not, but a recording of Ivory-bill "kents" and Blue Jay "kents" at the same time would come pretty close! If they had such recordings already, they probably would have them on the website now, since their value for defusing skepticism is obvious. Remember, though, the current search season isn't over.

The recorded kents and double-knocks are concentrated in areas where Ivory-bills have been seen. But the autonomous recording units are spread over a much larger area, not just in places where they saw the birds.

Edited to add: It's important to realize that there are thousands of hours of recordings. The recorders operate for a couple of hours in the morning and a couple of hours in the late afternoon, when the birds are deemed most likely to be calling. They use computers to isolate promising sounds, but it still takes a lot of time. It could be months before we know everything the ARUs have picked up this season.

Given the discussion about Tim Gallagher's talk at the SDNHM on Monday, I thought people might be interested in the talk I attended given by Bobby Harrison last night at the American Museum in NYC.

Much of the talk focused on the history of the demise of the IBWO and the searches that have taken place over the past 75 years (most of this was discussed at length in Grail Bird and other books on IBWO). Approximately 1/4 of the talk was dedicated to the science of documenting the species. Bobby is not at all discouraged by the Sibley et al. article. He did not speak at length concerning details of the Luneau video but said that the ongoing debate is part of the scientific process and he welcomes it. He argued that keeping the IBWO on the front page of newspapers is a good thing (either he didn't say why or I can't remember his rational). The most interesting part of the talk for me was the sound recordings. He played recordings of both kent calls and double-knocks made by Cornell's ARU's. He acknowledged that the blue jays make kent calls, but also suggested that these are typically intermingled with conventional blue jay calls. In addition, he showed the sonogram (but did not play) of a 26 second segment that contained three double knocks, two apparently made close to the ARU and the third distant to it. He did not provide any alternative explanation for the double-knocks.

Bobby also recalled his sightings of the IBWO. He has seen them twice, once with Tim Gallagher (the only sighting by two experienced birders at the same time) and another by himself in June of 2004 (or 2005?). He showed field notes from both occasions (the first were included in the supplementary online material of the original Science article). On both occasions his eyes were drawn to the white secondaries. He readily acknowledged that on neither occasion did he note the bill. Before the talk, as Bobby mingled about the gathering audience, one guy playfully waved in Bobby's face last Friday's New York Times article that described the challenge by Sibley et al. In response, Bobby smiled and said "We're really confident [in the sightings]". It is clear from hearing him speak (and talking with him) that there is NO DOUBT in Bobby Harrison that there are Ivory-billeds out there.

The mood in the room was light-hearted and not at all hostile (the questions afterward reflected this). Bobby is clearly a jovial fellow who does not appear to take life too seriously. He is extremely enthusiastic and is brimming with excitement about the ongoing searches. He indicated that no one wants a mug shot of the IBWO as badly as him and he believes that it will come eventually. He fully understands why people continue to doubt, afterall no one knows the history of IBWO woodpecker sightings and the skepticism that surrounds them better than Bobby (he is more or less the unofficial historian of the IBWO in North America).

Bobby did mention the video of the large woodpecker diving at his decoys (large wooden woodpeckers painted to match the color-patterning of an IBWO female). He also indicated that while white was evident on the wings the video was not conclusive. Interestingly, while much of the attention has shifted to the White River NWR, Bobby continues to spend much of his time in Bayou de View. He indicated that Bayou de View is narrow and should increase the chances of detecting a bird on the move. Furthermore, he suggested that this should also increase the chances of a fly-by IBWO seeing his decoys. In addition, he mentioned that he (or the team?) have three cameras that take pictures at four-second intervals of candidate roost holes in the morning and evening. Apparently, one of these cameras has recently been purchased for Bobby by a member of the Explorer's Club.

The questions following the talk did not challenge the sightings. There were two questions about IBWO in Cuba, one about other locations where IBWO may be in the south, one about blue jays, and one about the life expectancy of IBWO. The only question that seemed to at all question the sightings was asked in a unthreatening way. "Has the American Ornithological Union accepted these sightings?". Bobby said that they had not, but that they had been accepted by the Arkansas rare bird committee.

An important question that I have not seen discussed at any length is why aren't the double knocks considered to be more definitive than they apparently are. It is clear that other woodpeckers could inadvertently make a similar sound, but under what circumstances would three double knocks be made from two locations in a 26 second interval. Furthermore, as pointed out by Curtis Croulet, Tim Gallagher apparently presented evidence that the double knocks were concentrated in specific areas. In the absence of a photo or an unpixelated video confirming an IBWO in the Big Woods, the series of double knocks seem like a key piece of the puzzle. I am interested in alternative explanations.

Jonathan Flowers
Stony Brook, NY
 

70ivorybill78

Well-known member
RE post 3728 by Oriole83

"It is clear from hearing him speak (and talking with him) that there is NO DOUBT in Bobby Harrison that there are Ivory-billeds out there."
--------------
Jonathan

I have also spoken with Bobby first hand (by phone) and there was NO DOUBT from Bobby that he had seen Ivorybills. After speaking with him, I also have no doubt that he did indeed see and Ivorybill(s).
 

Curtis Croulet

Well-known member
Andigena said:
Curtis; Thanks for a good summary of Gallagher's talk. What did he say (you mentioned a map) are the area's (in general) where observations/calls are concentrated, outside the Hwy. 17 bridge over Bayou de View?

I didn't see the map long enough to see if Hwy 17 was even marked on it. The circled areas were, according to Gallagher, about 50 miles apart (White River and Cache River, respectively). The north-south extent of the map and the distribution of the dots marking the ARUs went way beyond the circled locations. I was impressed by this, because there are many more ARUs and they are much more extensively distributed than the anonymous writer of that infamous Worldtwitch rant may realize. If the ARUs are within easy kayaking distance of the highway and/or secondary roads, that would be understandable, because the ARUs need to be maintained, and, also, the birds don't seem to be afraid of highways. Just as a general observation, I often see birds singing and nesting happily in places where you wonder how they can hear each other. They are frightened by sudden noises, but the constant drone of a highway doesn't bother them. I know of an active Bald Eagle nest in Southern California that is within easy view of a fairly busy rural highway.
 

Jesse Gilsdorf

Well-known member
There is a bald eagle's nest in Alton, Illinois (St. Louis area) where people stop on the highway and watch the birds and the birds clearly can see them. It basically is a small park (swampy area) in the middle of a city. Been there for years.
 

Curtis Croulet

Well-known member
oriole83 said:
Given the discussion about Tim Gallagher's talk at the SDNHM on Monday, I thought people might be interested in the talk I attended given by Bobby Harrison last night at the American Museum in NYC.

Jonathan Flowers
Stony Brook, NY

It sounds as though Harrison's AMNH talk and Q&A session were very similar to Gallagher's in San Diego.

I think the audio recordings are better evidence than the video. Yes, it's possible (consipracy hat on) they were faked, but even a really fabulous set of photos or video would not be immune from charges of fakery ("They doctored images of Pileateds so they won't have to retract their claims of seeing an 'extinct' bird").
 

Russ Jones

Well-known member
Is Kenn Kaufmann & David Sibley under the belief that the woodpecker on the Luneau video is the same bird reported by Sparling & Harrison?
No. They believe that the bird on that video is a normal pileated woodpecker but don't mention anything about the ivory-bill sigtings being the same bird as the one on the video. As far as I could tell the only debates they bring up is the ID of the bird in the video, the calls being inconclusive and the foraging signs being inconclusive. I wonder what their thoughts are on all of the sightings by reputable and very knowledgable birders and ornithologists.

Cheers,

Russ
 

Curtis Croulet

Well-known member
With the disclaimer that this is hearsay: Tim Gallagher, answering a question after his talk in San Diego, said Sibley believes there are probably Ivory-bills in Arkansas, based upon the sightings. He just doesn't think the Luneau video shows one, and he doesn't think the quality of the evidence is at a level he would like. So that implies that he thinks Sparling, Harrison and Gallagher have seen Ivory-bills, but the video shows a Pileated. Kaufman, if the postings on the Ohio birding list are any indication, doesn't believe any of them are Ivory-bills.
 

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